The Offical WFF BS Thread!

[The Duck Hammer]

You get in a fight, you legitimately fear for your life, but the guy let's you go, you don't just go back to your rational self instantly.

There was NOTHING cold blooded about that. Criminal. No doubt.

Everything I have heard suggest that it MAY have been legitimate for him to have shot him in self defense seconds before he actually did. You want to execute someone for that. No way.

That's part of the responsibility of carrying a gun. You gotta make split second decisions that you can defend. Had they been fighting and he emptied his gun, he would be in the clear and I'd be fighting for this guy. This is far more than a mere fuck up.

He also shot EIGHT times.

Over 3 seconds. He freaked and emptied his gun. That is not cold blooded. It is criminal.

The fact that he walked up to the guy and cuffed him and then walked off and got the tazer to plant it shows theres more than just a mere criminal aspect to this. He tried framing the poor guy instead of saving him. That seems very odd to me. If I was on an adrenalin rush and shot some poor bastard I'd be trying to save the guy not trying to frame him. This cop murdered the victim. Paint it however you want but the guy is playing with 2's and 3's while the prosecutor is gonna have nothing but Aces. Guy had no remorse, no immediate guilt that's cold blooded.

[The Duck Hammer]

Immediate remorse wasn't the best way to word that but you get the point.

[SpinnerMan]

I am NOT fighting for this guy. I believe he should go to jail for 5 years. I do not believe he should be executed.

This is far more than a mere **** up.

Which is why he should go to jail for half a decade.

It was not a mere fuck up. It was a criminal fuck up.

Did he WANT this man dead? If he did, then execute his ass. I BELIEVE that he was not acting, but reacting. Without being able to read his mind, you give every accused person the benefit of the doubt. In this case, I don't think the benefit of the doubt allows you to execute him. I do think it allows you to say he should go to jail for a long time. BTW, I do not believe anyone should go to jail for more than maybe a decade. If they have done something so horrible that they deserve more than that, then they are such a threat to society that we should execute them. For me 5 years is a long time.

Is this man a threat when he gets out of jail? He will NEVER be allowed to carry or even own a gun again and he should never be. Five years and a convicted felon for life is a stiff sentence.

The fact that he walked up to the guy and cuffed him and then walked off and got the tazer to plant it shows theres more than just a mere criminal aspect to this. He tried framing the poor guy instead of saving him.

If he was already dead, he's dead. Now if he was in fact still alive and the cop knew this and chose to let him die so he could try to cover his ass, then that is premeditated murder. Like I said, there could be evidence to change my mind, but based on what we KNOW for certain, which is very little, I don't see it. I believe his actions after the fact warrant an additional 2 years. Again, this is at a minimum.

What can we prove?

It could be true that he decided that morning that he wanted to go kill a black man and that is exactly what happened. There is no way to prove that it is NOT what happened.

However, giving him the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe that you can prove that he did anything more than freaked out and this man died as a result and after he realized the horrible thing that he just did that he tried to cover it up. Maybe there was more to it than that, but with the limited evidence we have, can you be sure enough to say this man should be executed. For me, right now, it is not even close.

It is an interesting debate because it is so emotional to watch a man be gunned down who clearly did not deserve to be killed.

If the cop was my brother or the man he killed was my brother, justice means coming to the same conclusion regardless of the perspective.

[Olly]

What can we prove?

The suspect was unarmed and was moving away from the officer with his hands clearly visible.
He shot an unarmed man who was moving AWAY from him.
He had backup less than 2 minutes away.
He did NOT give chase to the suspect.
He pulled his gun AFTER the suspect was out of physical striking distance.
He fired 8 times striking the suspect 5 times.
He moved evidence in such a way that it would only benefit his case.
He DID NOT render CPR even though he stated in his report that he did so.
The first officer on scene DID NOT render CPR even though he stated he did in the report.
The first officer on scene witnessed the tampering of evidence and did not report it.

Just off the top of my head.

[The Duck Hammer]

Cops looking out for one another. Hope that guy gets fired if not already.

[RickC]

I rarely step into one of these but here's my take. I worked patrol for 11 years. Every police officer, deputy sheriff, highly patrol and so forth has had Tennessee vs Garner, 471 US1. It's reinforced every year, or two, depending state training requirements under use of force. From a viewpoint in the grand stands a murder charge is warranted.. IMHO

[SpinnerMan]

I rarely step into one of these but here's my take. I worked patrol for 11 years. Every police officer, deputy sheriff, highly patrol and so forth has had Tennessee vs Garner, 471 US1. It's reinforced every year, or two, depending state training requirements under use of force. From a viewpoint in the grand stands a murder charge is warranted.. IMHO

Capital murder and the death penalty or a lesser murder charge?

It just feels like a lynch mob treatment to me. Granted, the person lynched by the lynch mob often deserves it. I don't think he does in this particular case. I'd be very curious from your perspective what you think the just punishment is for what you have seen.

The suspect was unarmed and was moving away from the officer with his hands clearly visible.
He shot an unarmed man who was moving AWAY from him.
He had backup less than 2 minutes away.
He did NOT give chase to the suspect.
He pulled his gun AFTER the suspect was out of physical striking distance.
He fired 8 times striking the suspect 5 times.

It took you many times longer to type this than it took the officer to do all of these items.

It's not a situation that I have ever been in nor wish to be. You board a boat for a routine stop and all the sudden you find your self in a physical confrontation where you fear for your life, split second decisions are often in hindsight horrible decisions. That's the job he signed up for. I just don't think he deserves to die any more than the guy he shot did.

He moved evidence in such a way that it would only benefit his case.
He DID NOT render CPR even though he stated in his report that he did so.
The first officer on scene DID NOT render CPR even though he stated he did in the report.
The first officer on scene witnessed the tampering of evidence and did not report it.

All crimes and all should be punished. What penalty do you think they should be? Again, I don't think he should be executed for these crimes.

Do you believe that he should be executed? I don't. At least not yet. Zero chance that he is not guilty of very serious crimes (not crime, but multiple crimes), but highly skeptical that he is guilty of any capital crimes.

[Olly]

It's not a situation that I have ever been in nor wish to be. You board a boat for a routine stop and all the sudden you find your self in a physical confrontation where you fear for your life, split second decisions are often in hindsight horrible decisions. That's the job he signed up for. I just don't think he deserves to die any more than the guy he shot did.

This was not the same thing at all. Deadly forced stopped being justified when the suspect turn and ran from the officer.

There was no split second to this. I just watched the video several more times and the officer had by my stop watch 3 seconds from the time we was in firing position to his first shot. The entire shooting took 9 seconds to complete. There is even a 1 second pause between his 7th and 8th shot so he could get back target. Knowing all that it shows that the officer had TIME to consider his actions.

I do not believe the officer woke up that morning and said to himself "I'm going to murder someone today" but his actions also show that he was not concerned with NOT murdering someone either.

Do you believe that he should be executed? I don't. At least not yet. Zero chance that he is not guilty of very serious crimes (not crime, but multiple crimes), but highly skeptical that he is guilty of any capital crimes.

Yes. If found guilty for murder by a jury he should be put to death. If he serves life in prison he should not be given a special cell. The 2nd cop that lied on the report should also face serious jail time.

If I was a resident of Charleston I would be very proud that the city pressed charges against this guy and the fact that someone within the LE community there is up holding the law proves there are good police out there. This man is not one of them.

[The Duck Hammer]

Do you believe that he should be executed? I don't. At least not yet. Zero chance that he is not guilty of very serious crimes (not crime, but multiple crimes), but highly skeptical that he is guilty of any capital crimes.

This guy killed a man for no reason. So yeah death penalty. If it had been a borderline bad shoot like when the guy was pulling away yeah I could see just jail time as he could be coming back to launch an attack. Pretty accepted fact that cowards shoot a man in the back not someone fearing their life. The last shot was calculated to kill, the officer slowed down, took aim, and murdered the guy.

[ohioduck]

I love Jimmy Johns they have great sammiches

[SpinnerMan]

Pretty accepted fact that cowards shoot a man in the back not someone fearing their life.

That's because cowards fear for their life even when people are running away

Deadly forced stopped being justified when the suspect turn and ran from the officer.

Agree 100%. I hope that wasn't in doubt.

There was no split second to this. I just watched the video several more times and the officer had by my stop watch 3 seconds from the time we was in firing position to his first shot.

So you are going to execute someone over 9 seconds when they had no intent to kill prior to that?

If found guilty for murder by a jury he should be put to death.

But what do you think? That is my question. Do you think a jury should sentence him to death?

I think taking a man's life is extremely serious decision. I am highly skeptical that those 9 seconds are sufficient to justify his execution.

I guess I'm pretty fanatic about giving the accused the benefit of the doubt.

If I was a resident of Charleston I would be very proud that the city pressed charges against this guy and the fact that someone within the LE community there is up holding the law proves there are good police out there. This man is not one of them.

You do understand I agree with this 100%. It's simply a question of or

The 2nd cop that lied on the report should also face serious jail time.

Agreed 100%.

I actually think the penalty should be the same as the 1st cop. If you do something to get someone wrongly convicted or do something to hide a crime, your time should be the same as that crime. Cover up a capital murder

If it had been a borderline bad shoot like when the guy was pulling away yeah I could see just jail time

If it was borderline, what happened to guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? If it is borderline, the guy gets to walk free. This was not even close to any border line. It is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over the legal line. The question is whether it crosses the line where he deserves to be executed. I just don't think it is even borderline for capital murder. I'm surprised that so many people are so confident that it is clearly over that line and is capital murder and he should be executed for it. That's why I responded as I did.

Interesting differences of opinion

[ohioduck]

Check this shit out Olly.


https://gma.yahoo.com/shooting-victim-w ... ories.html

An unexpected connection has emerged between the South Carolina police officer and the man he is accused of shooting after a traffic stop -- the fatal incident caught on video.

Both Officer Michael Slager and Walter "Lamar" Scott served in the U.S. Coast Guard years before their confrontation on Saturday in North Charleston left Scott dead and led to Slager being charged with murder on Tuesday.

ht_michael_slager_walter_scott_jc_150408_16x9_992.jpg

[The Duck Hammer]

Pretty accepted fact that cowards shoot a man in the back not someone fearing their life.

That's because cowards fear for their life even when people are running away

No that's bullshit and you know it.

There was no split second to this. I just watched the video several more times and the officer had by my stop watch 3 seconds from the time we was in firing position to his first shot.

So you are going to execute someone over 9 seconds when they had no intent to kill prior to that?

I'd vote for the death penalty if I was on the jury.

If it had been a borderline bad shoot like when the guy was pulling away yeah I could see just jail time

If it was borderline, what happened to guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? If it is borderline, the guy gets to walk free. This was not even close to any border line. It is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy over the legal line. The question is whether it crosses the line where he deserves to be executed. I just don't think it is even borderline for capital murder. I'm surprised that so many people are so confident that it is clearly over that line and is capital murder and he should be executed for it. That's why I responded as I did.

That would have been an alternate situation. He's guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt for what he did.

[The Duck Hammer]

On another note, fuck environmental economics. That's all.

[SpinnerMan]

On another note, **** environmental economics. That's all.

If taught well, understanding the concepts is very valuable even if it is not something that you eventually do. Even if your professor is an idiot, the underlying concepts and theory are quite valuable with real world applicability far beyond that. They really are.

Of course, this is from a guy whose minor for his PhD was environmental engineering and does economics as part of his day job. You would have loved the conversations I've had the last couple days on a complex mother of a problem, but we finally found a solution that gives meaningful results A key part of that solution was developing the method in a way that we can eventually move to do what I suspect that you are studying. However, I want to steer completely clear of that until I have my management and customer buy in on how we are evaluating the costs and what they mean (and what they do not mean). Then I'll bring in these even more abstract, but real, concepts in.

The problem is that this shit is just complicated until you really understand it and even then its still a bitch.

Everybody thinks they understand economics. Very few people truly even grasp Econ 101. I know our President does not nor do 99% of politicians. Good luck

[Olly]

Check this shit out Olly.


https://gma.yahoo.com/shooting-victim-w ... ories.html

An unexpected connection has emerged between the South Carolina police officer and the man he is accused of shooting after a traffic stop -- the fatal incident caught on video.

Both Officer Michael Slager and Walter "Lamar" Scott served in the U.S. Coast Guard years before their confrontation on Saturday in North Charleston left Scott dead and led to Slager being charged with murder on Tuesday.

ht_michael_slager_walter_scott_jc_150408_16x9_992.jpg

I knew the cop served in the CG but I did not know the suspect was. That's crazy, I wonder if it's connected some how?

I'd really like to see their service records. If I had to bet, they both did one tour then got out. The military is good at making people that don't belong there want to get out.

[ohioduck]

Check this shit out Olly.


https://gma.yahoo.com/shooting-victim-w ... ories.html

An unexpected connection has emerged between the South Carolina police officer and the man he is accused of shooting after a traffic stop -- the fatal incident caught on video.

Both Officer Michael Slager and Walter "Lamar" Scott served in the U.S. Coast Guard years before their confrontation on Saturday in North Charleston left Scott dead and led to Slager being charged with murder on Tuesday.

ht_michael_slager_walter_scott_jc_150408_16x9_992.jpg

I knew the cop served in the CG but I did not know the suspect was. That's crazy, I wonder if it's connected some how?

I'd really like to see their service records. If I had to bet, they both did one tour then got out. The military is good at making people that don't belong there want to get out.

Said the suspect did 2 years. Wonder if he was booted for something. Cop looks like a Boatswains or a Gunners mate. Some deck monkey most likely

[Olly]

Said the suspect did 2 years. Wonder if he was booted for something. Cop looks like a Boatswains or a Gunners mate. Some deck monkey most likely

I forgot, you're in the CG aren't you?

[ohioduck]

Said the suspect did 2 years. Wonder if he was booted for something. Cop looks like a Boatswains or a Gunners mate. Some deck monkey most likely

I forgot, you're in the CG aren't you?

Was. Got out in 01

[The Duck Hammer]

On another note, **** environmental economics. That's all.

If taught well, understanding the concepts is very valuable even if it is not something that you eventually do. Even if your professor is an idiot, the underlying concepts and theory are quite valuable with real world applicability far beyond that. They really are.

Of course, this is from a guy whose minor for his PhD was environmental engineering and does economics as part of his day job. You would have loved the conversations I've had the last couple days on a complex mother of a problem, but we finally found a solution that gives meaningful results A key part of that solution was developing the method in a way that we can eventually move to do what I suspect that you are studying. However, I want to steer completely clear of that until I have my management and customer buy in on how we are evaluating the costs and what they mean (and what they do not mean). Then I'll bring in these even more abstract, but real, concepts in.

The problem is that this shit is just complicated until you really understand it and even then its still a bitch.

Everybody thinks they understand economics. Very few people truly even grasp Econ 101. I know our President does not nor do 99% of politicians. Good luck

I love economics but this class is killing me. The professor is a consultant to the EPA.

[Olly]

Said the suspect did 2 years. Wonder if he was booted for something. Cop looks like a Boatswains or a Gunners mate. Some deck monkey most likely

I forgot, you're in the CG aren't you?

Was. Got out in 01

That's right. So at least you know these guys weren't steller Coasties if one turned out to be a murderer and the other dead beat dad running from the law.

[ohioduck]

Said the suspect did 2 years. Wonder if he was booted for something. Cop looks like a Boatswains or a Gunners mate. Some deck monkey most likely

I forgot, you're in the CG aren't you?

Was. Got out in 01

That's right. So at least you know these guys weren't steller Coasties if one turned out to be a murderer and the other dead beat dad running from the law.

Yeah neither of these guys were Coastie of the month.

[ohioduck]

tumblr_nm7gi9nbFO1qjj1nko1_500.jpg

[SpinnerMan]

On another note, **** environmental economics. That's all.

If taught well, understanding the concepts is very valuable even if it is not something that you eventually do. Even if your professor is an idiot, the underlying concepts and theory are quite valuable with real world applicability far beyond that. They really are.

Of course, this is from a guy whose minor for his PhD was environmental engineering and does economics as part of his day job. You would have loved the conversations I've had the last couple days on a complex mother of a problem, but we finally found a solution that gives meaningful results A key part of that solution was developing the method in a way that we can eventually move to do what I suspect that you are studying. However, I want to steer completely clear of that until I have my management and customer buy in on how we are evaluating the costs and what they mean (and what they do not mean). Then I'll bring in these even more abstract, but real, concepts in.

The problem is that this **** is just complicated until you really understand it and even then its still a ****.

Everybody thinks they understand economics. Very few people truly even grasp Econ 101. I know our President does not nor do 99% of politicians. Good luck

I love economics but this class is killing me. The professor is a consultant to the EPA.

With every class, there are two things you need to learn. The concepts and what the professor wants you to tell him on the tests. They are often not that close

It's college. If it's not killing you, you aren't taking enough classes or your professors aren't getting your money's worth out of you.

I'm glad that is all behind me. If I ever go back to college, I'll be the one doing the killing

I occasionally work with some of my professors. I still feel weird referring to them by their first names. I guess it is a result of all those years of

[DeadEye_Dan]

Hi

What have you been up to man?

Working

[Olly]

So you are going to execute someone over 9 seconds when they had no intent to kill prior to that?

Do you think %100 of all murders plan to murder someone that day? Do you think someone in gang A plans to kill someone in gang B when they're eatting their fruit loops that morning? Do you think we should spare those gang members becase in a split second they saw their rival gang after then turned a corner and opened fire?

He murdered that man. Cold blood murder. Go watch the video a few more times. Look at that last shot he took specfically.

[The Duck Hammer]

On another note, **** environmental economics. That's all.

If taught well, understanding the concepts is very valuable even if it is not something that you eventually do. Even if your professor is an idiot, the underlying concepts and theory are quite valuable with real world applicability far beyond that. They really are.

Of course, this is from a guy whose minor for his PhD was environmental engineering and does economics as part of his day job. You would have loved the conversations I've had the last couple days on a complex mother of a problem, but we finally found a solution that gives meaningful results A key part of that solution was developing the method in a way that we can eventually move to do what I suspect that you are studying. However, I want to steer completely clear of that until I have my management and customer buy in on how we are evaluating the costs and what they mean (and what they do not mean). Then I'll bring in these even more abstract, but real, concepts in.

The problem is that this **** is just complicated until you really understand it and even then its still a ****.

Everybody thinks they understand economics. Very few people truly even grasp Econ 101. I know our President does not nor do 99% of politicians. Good luck

I love economics but this class is killing me. The professor is a consultant to the EPA.

With every class, there are two things you need to learn. The concepts and what the professor wants you to tell him on the tests. They are often not that close

It's college. If it's not killing you, you aren't taking enough classes or your professors aren't getting your money's worth out of you.

I'm glad that is all behind me. If I ever go back to college, I'll be the one doing the killing

I occasionally work with some of my professors. I still feel weird referring to them by their first names. I guess it is a result of all those years of

Last test I took the professor sent out an email basically saying you were a fucking idiot if you made less than an 85. I made an 84.... Next class, last Friday I believe, she went over the test. As she's saying/having other students say the answers the ones she had marked wrong on mine matched those word for word. I said fuck it and didn't even fight for my points. Me and this teacher don't get along one damn bit so it's best I just avoid her.

[SpinnerMan]

So you are going to execute someone over 9 seconds when they had no intent to kill prior to that?

Do you think %100 of all murders plan to murder someone that day? Do you think someone in gang A plans to kill someone in gang B when they're eatting their fruit loops that morning? Do you think we should spare those gang members becase in a split second they saw their rival gang after then turned a corner and opened fire?

He murdered that man. Cold blood murder. Go watch the video a few more times. Look at that last shot he took specfically.

I do not think 100% of murders are capital murders. I think that 100% of capital murders should require the intent to murder someone meaning that there is the prerequisite forethought that essentially is that I don't need to kill this person, but I am going to do it anyways. The exception to that would be someone so crazy that they murder some random person. That kind of crazy is just not safe to ever risk being loose in society.

If you board my boat and I jump your ass and turn and run and you gun me down, I do not think that is capital murder UNLESS it can be proven that you are not simply following through. When you shoot my dumbass, you will look like a trained professional when you do it because you are in fact a trained professional and will be responding with a well practiced response. That doesn't mean that in your brain you have made the decision that you know I don't deserve to die but fuck it you are going to kill me anyways. Maybe, maybe not, but that's not good enough to justify executing you. Your job, some of your freedom, but not your life.

Now if we had video before that and the guy was just lipping off and being an ass, then I agree. If the man assaulted the cop and there was any point where it would have been justified that the cop would have killed him, I think that raises sufficient doubt for me that the man should not be executed. Without proof of which, I don't think the default is execute him.

BTW, I watched it a couple times. There is a clear hesitation between the last two shots but from the video I cannot tell what went through his mind or why there was that brief hesitation. This is a trained response in a surreal situation. In his mind, is he acting or just reacting?

I'm all for executing a lot of people, but you just have to be so damned sure. I'm not that sure in this case. I'm sure that what he did was not justifiable, but should we take him out and put a bullet in his head for it?

As far as the gangbanger question. Which one fires the first shot? They get to defend themselves just like you and me. I would judge it no differently. If in that video, one gangbanger jumps another one causing him to fear for his life and then turns and runs, you cannot execute him for that. He's probably a felon in possession and other crimes, and if he tries to cover it up, you charge him with everything from the involuntary manslaughter or 2nd degree murder, etc., but you cannot execute him for that.

If he was never in fear for his life and just opens up, then absolutely. We are missing a key part, what happened before the video started. If the person is reasonably in fear for his life, it is not reasonable to expect them to act in the same manner as if they just saw that person walking down the street. However, when you carry a gun, you do have a responsibility as someone said. That's why it's a crime. It's just not a capital crime in my never humble opinion.

[The Duck Hammer]

I think that 100% of capital murders should require the intent to murder someone meaning that there is the prerequisite forethought that essentially is that I don't need to kill this person, but I am going to do it anyways. .

Ssssooooo, exactly what happened in this case.

[Olly]

I think that 100% of capital murders should require the intent to murder someone meaning that there is the prerequisite forethought that essentially is that I don't need to kill this person, but I am going to do it anyways. .

Ssssooooo, exactly what happened in this case.

Man I was going to say exactly the same thing... You beat me to the punch.