Whatcha think of this?

by **Redbeard** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:08 pm

Some touching stuff in this interview. Curious to hear from anyone who's walked in those shoes, close to it, or known anyone who has.

[youtube]TGZMSmcuiXM[youtube]

by **Eric Haynes** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:09 pm

Redbeard wrote:Some touching stuff in this interview. Curious to hear from anyone who's walked in those shoes, close to it, or known anyone who has.

[youtube]TGZMSmcui[youtube]

I'd love to watch that

by **Redbeard** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:09 pm

What the hell man

by **Redbeard** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:10 pm

I give up

by **AKPirate** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:17 pm

by **Redbeard** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:19 pm

Thanks Tim. What did I do wrong? The code looked longer than it usually does

by **AKPirate** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:21 pm

Redbeard wrote:Thanks Tim. What did I do wrong? The code looked longer than it usually does

missing a slash in the second youtube quote

by **Redbeard** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:22 pm

by **3geese4me** » Sun May 25, 2014 9:46 pm

I feel the same way as him when he described war. Being over there is a sensation that is very hard to describe.

by **jarbo03** » Sun May 25, 2014 10:15 pm

Haven't watched the vid, will have to do that on my phone. By seeing the title, it reminds me of talks with my gramps. He said the pride, adrenaline, and the camaraderie were the good parts. He liked his time in Europe, but was ready to get the fuck away from war. I was the first person he ever talked about the war with, starting around 15 years ago. It seems to me that soldiers who entered on their own have a different feel of active duty than those from the draft eras. This is only my thoughts from the handful of soldiers who are friends or family and have talked with about it.

by **waterfowlman** » Mon May 26, 2014 9:15 am

Sebastian Junger has never run to the sound of the guns. He has no right to talk about. Fuck him.

by **RonE** » Mon May 26, 2014 9:40 am

I think that the way he puts it, it is an over simplification. We see the same behavior that he illuminates in Motorcycle gangs, street gangs, prisons and to some extent in police and fire departments.

In part, when you are in or at war, your first goal is to stay alive or win. All the bullshit goes out the window, you have something to do or nothing to do but you seldom have bullshit. Away from war and "back in the world" (as we used to say) you are under tremendous pressure, by comparison, to conform, to obey, to produce and to "fit in". All of these things go to the back burner when you are in the shit.

by **Redbeard** » Mon May 26, 2014 10:20 am

waterfowlman wrote:Sebastian Junger has never run to the sound of the guns. He has no right to talk about. Fuck him.

I would in no way hold a journalist in high regard, especially compared to combat troops. But if he was there and if he did spend time observing these troops, what're your thoughts on the observations he made in the interview?

by **Redbeard** » Mon May 26, 2014 10:39 am

RonE wrote:I think that the way he puts it, it is an over simplification. We see the same behavior that he illuminates in Motorcycle gangs, street gangs, prisons and to some extent in police and fire departments.

In part, when you are in or at war, your first goal is to stay alive or win. All the bullshit goes out the window, you have something to do or nothing to do but you seldom have bullshit. Away from war and "back in the world" (as we used to say) you are under tremendous pressure, by comparison, to conform, to obey, to produce and to "fit in". All of these things go to the back burner when you are in the shit.

Of course there's a brotherhood amongst those groups, but I wouldn't downplay the bond and brotherhood amongst combat veterans

by **assateague** » Mon May 26, 2014 11:05 am

Redbeard wrote:
waterfowlman wrote:Sebastian Junger has never run to the sound of the guns. He has no right to talk about. Fuck him.
I would in no way hold a journalist in high regard, especially compared to combat troops. But if he was there and if he did spend time observing these troops, what're your thoughts on the observations he made in the interview?

Ok, my caveat- I've never been in combat for anything close to an extended period of time. But I have been shot at and shot back a few times. That being said, I think the biggest thing is that he can leave at any time. Or simply hide in a hole. I'm not discounting his experiences at all, but when you have the leisure of saying "enough" as your ace in the hole, even if you never use it, it's going to filter your perceptions quite a bit. I think he's close, but it goes quite a bit deeper than that.

by **waterfowlman** » Mon May 26, 2014 11:22 am

Redbeard wrote:
waterfowlman wrote:Sebastian Junger has never run to the sound of the guns. He has no right to talk about. Fuck him.
I would in no way hold a journalist in high regard, especially compared to combat troops. But if he was there and if he did spend time observing these troops, what're your thoughts on the observations he made in the interview?

This is strictly my personal opinion.
There are many reasons why people join the military and each has his own story. However, in combat when a full blown firefight breaks out, you are not fighting for country or any other idealistic belief. You are fighting for the men next to you and your own life.
There is definitely a lot of adrenalin flowing and some men find it addictive. There's no deer or duck hunt that's going to compare to it........ever. Most combat veterans adjust to civilian life eventually and the experience of war fades somewhat. A small minority of these men will continue to seek out the sound of the guns as long as they are able to. If you ever have to go into combat, these are the type of men you'll want to find in the foxhole next to you.
Not too sure this makes sense but it is my thought on the subject.

by **Redbeard** » Mon May 26, 2014 12:05 pm

assateague wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
waterfowlman wrote:Sebastian Junger has never run to the sound of the guns. He has no right to talk about. Fuck him.
I would in no way hold a journalist in high regard, especially compared to combat troops. But if he was there and if he did spend time observing these troops, what're your thoughts on the observations he made in the interview?

Ok, my caveat- I've never been in combat for anything close to an extended period of time. But I have been shot at and shot back a few times. That being said, I think the biggest thing is that he can leave at any time. Or simply hide in a hole. I'm not discounting his experiences at all, but when you have the leisure of saying "enough" as your ace in the hole, even if you never use it, it's going to filter your perceptions quite a bit. I think he's close, but it goes quite a bit deeper than that.

Even with no obvious combat experience, I agree wholeheartedly. When I watched the video, I interpreted his comments as his observations of the troops, not implications that he shared their experiences with them. If he did imply that maybe I missed it and need to rematch it

@Rick I'll apply this response to yours too

But glad you posted. I wanted to hear opinions from experienced veterans

by **assateague** » Mon May 26, 2014 12:19 pm

His observations may be spot on, as far as he's concerned. I just think they're a little "shallow", for lack of a better word. Again, nothing against him.

by **Redbeard** » Mon May 26, 2014 12:47 pm

Not being argumentative here at all Jim. I'm honestly wanna know how you think they were shallow. And again if I missed something I'll watch again.

by **assateague** » Mon May 26, 2014 1:51 pm

When he speaks of being scared before and after, in some piece of his mind, he knows that he can say "check, please" at any time and go home. He doesn't HAVE to keep going back, again and again, even if he does. What he is describing is from the outside looking in, even if he's very, very close to the glass, so to speak. It's not necessarily about those particular moments- it's about all the moments and shared experiences leading up to those moments, as well. It's not just the shared experience of being shot at, it's the shared experiences which all had together before those moments, also. He seems to see it as a "this is what forged those bonds" type of deal, but it's more than that. It's the shared experience of having no choice but to be there, of all the moments preceding it, and of all the moments afterward.

Like Rick said, I'm sure there are some who feed off the adrenalin, but it's more the connection with the others, at least for me. More so than just the chemical dump. To love and care about others that deeply isn't really a product of a firefight or a deployment, but of a life of shared misery, shared fun times, shared disgust, shared hatred, and so on. The realization that you're all there, you can't leave, and all the times which led up to that point.

Not sure if that makes sense or not.

by **assateague** » Mon May 26, 2014 1:52 pm

Maybe "it's a mutual understanding that the others understand you" would be another way to put it.

by **Redbeard** » Mon May 26, 2014 3:58 pm

assateague wrote:When he speaks of being scared before and after, in some piece of his mind, he knows that he can say "check, please" at any time and go home. He doesn't HAVE to keep going back, again and again, even if he does. What he is describing is from the outside looking in, even if he's very, very close to the glass, so to speak. It's not necessarily about those particular moments- it's about all the moments and shared experiences leading up to those moments, as well. It's not just the shared experience of being shot at, it's the shared experiences which all had together before those moments, also. He seems to see it as a "this is what forged those bonds" type of deal, but it's more than that. It's the shared experience of having no choice but to be there, of all the moments preceding it, and of all the moments afterward.

Like Rick said, I'm sure there are some who feed off the adrenalin, but it's more the connection with the others, at least for me. More so than just the chemical dump. To love and care about others that deeply isn't really a product of a firefight or a deployment, but of a life of shared misery, shared fun times, shared disgust, shared hatred, and so on. The realization that you're all there, you can't leave, and all the times which led up to that point.

Not sure if that makes sense or not.

i hear what you're saying and agree he nor anyone else directly involved can ever know what those soldiers know. But I just didn't get that he was talking about his own combat experiences or feelings about combat so much as he was discussing what he observed while living with these soldiers. And yea he can't observe those moments before they were deployed. And he won't observe all those moments after their deployment. But it seemed he painted a decent picture of the bond between the men while deployed and their shared experience of having no choice but to be there. Well anyhow that's kinda how I saw it.

by **assateague** » Mon May 26, 2014 7:54 pm

I think it's a very good picture, I just don't think his reasons are exactly right.

by **Redbeard** » Mon May 26, 2014 8:36 pm

assateague wrote:I think it's a very good picture, I just don't think his reasons are exactly right.

ok I gotcha. And you definitely could be right

by **Rick** » Tue May 27, 2014 4:43 pm

I don't open this forum often and may have today because last evening I found myself watching the documentary Junger and Hetherington did about OP Restrepo and the guys he's speaking of on the clip here. Maybe just because Memorial Day has me visiting ghosts.

Be that as it may, one of the things that struck me watching that documentary, as it has in other good ones, was that there's no way on God's little blue orb I could stand being in combat with just a camera and no gun. So I view Junger very differently than Rick does. I can't imagine having a sense of duty, responsibility or other such desire to record the lives or missions of soldiers that surpassed my desire to help control my own fate when shit happened. Hell, I wouldn't have traded jobs and paychecks with our pilots, because it would have required handing off the gun.

Jim may want to discount my view that Junger's earned the right to his opinion, because much of the time I had the "the leisure of saying 'enough' as (my) ace in the hole". Our mission was usually such that all I had to say was "jam," and the pilot was going to get us the hell out of there, because a jam rendered us useless. Never did it. Also had the option of just saying "no" to some particularly spooky stuff. Never saw anyone do that and only heard of one such instance. Not exercising those options didn't make me or anyone else remotely heroic, just one of the guys trying to do right by the others.

Didn't do anything great in my time there, but I refused to take short in country R&Rs, let alone a week out of country, during either of my trips, because whoever replaced me might screw up and get himself or someone else killed. Maybe that's the sense of brotherhood Junger's speaking of. Don't know. And don't believe what we're apt to miss about war is as simple as any one thing, not even such a complex thing as brotherhood.

But I do believe that Junger's earned the right to his opinion.