Post Season

[DComeaux]

My thoughts on outfitters is, they'd only affect their area. As john put it, the rest of us have to work and our areas should be quiet. Wouldn't that be a benefit?

Take a look at the 10 mile pond video I posted as an edit up a couple of posts.

[Rick]

I can't see a "What's happened to the migration?" discussion without thinking of old photos in our camp that were taken during the '40s and '50s, when Doug's father-in-law had his commercial camp next door. The geese in those old photos weren't specks or blues but big Canadas. No specks (or many snows, for that matter) in the blue goose photos I've seen from that era, either. And those blues photos are usually taken on boats with captions crediting deep marsh locations.

There weren't any specks, or at least not enough for Louisiana to have a season on them, and the blues were said to migrate in three hops: staging in Canada below their breeding grounds, making a Swan Lake, MO rest stop and then onto the Gulf Coast. Didn't know what rice was. Of course, all of that changed in the second half of the 20th century. The big Canadas stopped coming here, specks showed up in huntable numbers and blues (and snows) discovered rice.

By the time I moved here in '83, the Klondike Volunteer Fire Department was called "the statistical center of the greatest concentration of wintering white-fronted geese on the continent. Blues and even snows were thicker, yet, though the later still outnumbered by blue-phased by seven or eight to one. The only Canadas to be seen were too few little Richardsons to afford even short, permit-only hunting opportunity, and Ross geese were rare enough to be afforded the same trophy status as white-white breasted blues from blue/snow matings. (Felt like hot spit the first time I managed the then five bird limit of white-bellied eagle heads.)

So it should be no great surprise or sign of human conspiracy that things continue to change. The Richardsons Canadas became numerous enough to merit a long open season - then all but disappeared. The gullible little Ross goose is now common. (Or at least was when last I fooled with light geese to any real degree and still seems so in our camp goose parties' foggy day take.) The once prevalent wigeon has all but disappeared from our area, and black-bellied whistling ducks no one I knew was even aware existed thirty years ago are now second only to blackbirds on the rice farmer's scourge list.

I long ago broke ties with DU on other grounds, but they didn't do it.

[Ericdc]

Good post Rick.

I wasn’t around to see it but the thought of blues being all over the marsh is wild.

The birds are adapting.

Given the choice of adapting or extinction I’m glad they are adapting.

The tales of blues in the marsh sound like the tales of folks in the piney woods getting excited over seeing a deer track.


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[Rick]

Re: pressure. We are the enemy. Not just outfitters, all of us. If you've read my logs, you know how dependent my hunters are on other hunters pushing birds around. God bless the weekenders but also the seven and seven crews, the bosses who can set their own schedules and so on...

Were I king, I'd manage pressure with more chunks of "no hunting days" during the season - and piss the guys off who think we ought to stay open through what they hope to be prime migrations periods.

But it seems evident, to me at least, that having too few waterfowlers would be much worse for the resource and those of us who enjoy it than too many. More than a few more rice farms would be converted to more profitable cane if not for hunting lease revenues, and that's just one example of the pressures to bear on a resource without consumers in today's world.

[DComeaux]

So many thoughts and possible scenarios. When dealing with nature nothing is ever for certain, only that it is forever changing. What's lead to this particular change is where we are now, and I doubt we'll ever find a good enough answer, for most.

This issue (IMO) is in the same realm as global warming.

[Rick]

Reckon they could complain about our refuges limiting reverse migrations.

[DComeaux]

I have no doubt after seeing that video that "refuge" areas to the North are playing a part in this---it will take federal action to alter that

I feel the same John, but we have an issue. I've read where a study showed that birds arriving on the nesting grounds from a deep southern migration are in poorer condition then those that haven't traveled so far, which makes sense. With that said, were these mid states habitats constructed with the intention of food for the return, or round trip?

Bird condition, I'd assume, play's a big role in reproduction, so how would you eliminate this food source with good conscious? How would, or could you manage this food source only for return trips? Science study and implementations, for the most part, have good intentions, but the end results are not always favorable, and could produce unforeseen consequences. Was short stopping even considered, or was it just thrown out as an educated guess, non issue when developing these areas?

We just don't have the big picture in front of us. Do the Flyway states work together on migration issues? I have a lot of questions, just don't know who'll have the answers. I would love to be more involved with this Issue.

[DComeaux]

Reckon they could complain about our refuges limiting reverse migrations.

Rockefeller refuge was established in 1920, and Sabine was established in 1937, just to name a couple. I don't think we've ever had major nesting, or an issue with the birds leaving. If there is a buffet 100 miles from me, and you build one of equal quality at 50, where do you think I'm going to stop?..... Just my thoughts on your post.

[Rick]

The "reverse migrations" I'm referring to are those that happen, and perhaps always have, periodically while "wintering". Birds tend to shift back and forth with the weather or other influences. A for-instance being the transmittered pintails of the '90s that were inclined to go meet rains well to our north, presumably to take advantage of sheet-water feeding opportunities.

[DComeaux]

AH! I missed the word "reverse". But as you've mentioned, that's been going on forever. Like the dark sky's over the rice fields at dusk, this being birds pouring in from the marsh, or wherever, and the reverse in the mornings for the marsh. I know this is just local that i'm describing, and know of the pintail travels study with longer legs. But don't you think this gives a more even distribution? What we have now is a hold on birds.

The more I think about and discuss this the more I'm leaning to a stopping scenario. If the duck gurus during the BP spill thought it was possible to short stop or change migration routes, this gets has got me wondering. Build it and they will come, or stop, depending on your intentions.

[Ericdc]

I hope Larry jumps in, but I for one enjoy these discussions when they are like this. Polite and respectful. So thumbs up to you guys.

Probably why I don’t frequent other forums as much anymore. The atmosphere here is refreshing.


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[Ducaholic]

Just heard a guy say on The Fowl Life when we start holding 50, 60, 70, 80 thousand ducks we change the flight path and migration for an entire region. He was in Arkansas. There are hundreds of these places in the Miss. Flyway. No one wants to blame the specialized pressure limited habitat explosion 20 years of liberal regs have brought us because it’s the life blood of waterfowl but when you hear statements like that you know it’s part of the equation.

Carry on. Good thread!

[DComeaux]

As I've mentioned in an earlier post, I stood outside of a blind in Gueydan after LST many moons ago, well passed dark 30 and got to experience something like this, minus the corn stalks. I would assume this experience is limited today down here. Watch till the end and see the written comment.

This is an article on Missouri's wetlands restoration from just a few years ago. Note the amount of acreage involved at that time. What is it today?
https://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2006/01/where-are-ducks

[Lreynolds]

The more I think about and discuss this the more I'm leaning to a stopping scenario. If the duck gurus during the BP spill thought it was possible to short stop or change migration routes, this gets has got me wondering. Build it and they will come, or stop, depending on your intentions.

Be careful with that logic. The duck gurus in Louisiana told the NRCS in the first teleconference that initiated the Migratory Bird Habitat Initiative that it would not work. I personally told the head of NRCS with dozens of others on the call that the dominant species that winter in oil-effected habitats of SE LA would not be stopped by shallow-flooded agricultural habitat. And what happened? SE LA wintered twice the long-term average number of ducks in 2010-11. Why? Because we ran every freshwater diversion at capacity starting in late-April, and we had fantastic habitat conditions.

[Lreynolds]

I feel the same John, but we have an issue.

This is a tremendous topic with so many different things to discuss. For now, I'm just going to say that we have far more than 1 issue. We are losing our capacity to support ducks through habitat degradation. Coastal wetland loss, changes in acreage and reduction in duck-energy days provided by the rice we have left, and invasive aquatics are crystal-clear large-scale impacts that none of us doubt. We see them all around us. We are also on the wrong end of large-scale ecological changes. The 16 warmest years on record in the last 17 years, and changes in land-use, especially agricultural practices, are the prime suspects in ducks and geese wintering further north in the entire northern hemisphere, not just here in North America. You've seen it yourselves in the northern and eastern movement of white-winged doves and black-bellied whistling ducks. Off the top of my head, we have 1 thing going for us right now, and that is the big increase in the population of ring-necked ducks, which seem to favor our wetland habitats of late.

But I'm hearing none of that from hunters I'm talking to now. The assumption seems to be that everything is fine here, and we must take action against changes in other states.

We just don't have the big picture in front of us. Do the Flyway states work together on migration issues? I have a lot of questions, just don't know who'll have the answers. I would love to be more involved with this Issue.

We all have questions, especially when the conventional wisdom appears to be contradicted like it was this year. But there is no coordinated planning for migration among states. In fact, USFWS policies were largely developed under the assumption that migration could not be reasonably predicted or controlled. Habitat conditions could change among states both short and long-term, which is why waterfowl populations are managed on the Flyway scale. All states within a Flyway get the same framework hunting regulations, and when population-based action is called for, it's implemented in all states in the Flyway. They recognized in the beginning that whether birds were killed in Missouri or Louisiana wasn't critical to population maintenance.

But it certainly IS critical to hunter satisfaction in particular states, and I think what I'm hearing lately is demand for a fixed distribution of kill among states enforced by differential hunting and/or management regulations. Setting something like that in action given the differing trends in habitat quality and climatic impacts would be daunting.

[Ducaholic]

Dave cool video. Thanks for sharing.

I’d also add to what I said previously. When I say specialized habitat I mean all of it. Naturally occurring grain left after harvest. Moist soil units for the early arrivals and of course the hot food flooded standing crops which is needed when winter gets the harshest. None of this works without limiting pressure. Essentially these types of specialized habitat have become mini refuges. Judge for yourself but if you think about it rationally you know it’s having an impact when you couple it with all the other scenario’s that are working to alter what was a naturally occurring event.

[Darren]

Thanks for jumping in here, Larry. Hope (and I'm certain you will) you find it a much more civilized panel of discussion that heads in the right direction, versus other places I've seen the discussion going on lately. DComeaux and I got to kick it around a bit on the closing day of the east zone enjoying a morning in the blind that was slower than we'd hoped yet we still saw a lot of ducks........and that was quite a bit less than we had been seeing for most of the season there. As you saw in the logs on here, many of us in Louisiana, top to bottom, had our share of great hunts this season so we're not here ranting with pitchforks. But this is also a gathering of (civilized, I think ) and passionate waterfowl hunters that have taken notice of changes over the last 10-15 years.

My take on this, which has been touched on by others, is yes you have climatological changes in play for sure. But even with that removed from the equation, we would still be seeing discernible impacts from enhanced habitats north of us in Ark and MO. Duck hunting is simply big business now for many more people. Overall hunter numbers may be down, but money invested per hunter has to be way up, and is becoming the have's and the have-not's. Look at Habitat Flats in MO, literally farming for ducks, with tremendous success. They are not alone in that region. People are investing in the land and giving the birds more options, thus spreading them wider and holding them longer. On a local level, Little Pecan Island club is a glaring local example of this very practice. Big bucks are paying off for the have's, and they held a significant chunk of SW La marsh birds for much of this season, good for them. A friend of mine who grew up hunting the region made a hunt there this season, described it as "the most birds hes ever seen anywhere, the best hunting I've ever experienced, just indescribable". I'd do the same had I the means to do so. Lottery hits this weekend? Better believe I'm buying up all I can to build my own farm/duck haven. Short of that, I'll keep doing what I'm doing now that's been just fine. But not without an awareness of what's become undeniable.

I've seen the data, as you've shared to all who would listen (or not), and am certainly not one to disregard it. The numbers just don't lie, even when what is perceived on a given day at a given blind might attempt to temporarily discredit it. So that's what we have now, some have big hunts and think all is well, others have slow hunts and think sky has already fallen. Answer is somewhere in between, I suppose.

Keep the civil discussion rolling, gents

[Rick]

I've seen the data, as you've shared to all who would listen (or not), and am certainly not one to disregard it. The numbers just don't lie, even when what is perceived on a given day at a given blind might attempt to temporarily discredit it. So that's what we have now, some have big hunts and think all is well, others have slow hunts and think sky has already fallen. Answer is somewhere in between, I suppose.

I've never seen/heard anyone in Louisiana deny the changes in its waterfowling. When I arrived here in '83, the old timers told me I'd already missed the show, and many thought ducks were no longer worth the trouble - during the ten point days today's old guys look back on longingly. But being from the duck starved Mid Ohio Valley, it still looked mighty fine to me. And still does.

Louisianans can go around and around debating the apportionment of blame for where we are today and, for the most part, proposing that others should change their ways to give us back "our" birds, but precious little of what I'm hearing on these boards and elsewhere is remotely feasible. Simply isn't going to happen, no matter how much hot air is expended - or, worse, might come to pass and backfire.

Then again, if half the energy expended on bitching about what other folks ought to give up for our benefit went into making the most of what we're still blessed with, we might wipe the resource out entirely...

[Rick]

None of that should be read as pointed at Darren or anyone else in particular, just used the quote as a jumping-off point for my little rant.

[Rick]

Just read this on another site:

Learned to hiny down there, starting when I was 12. We leased the old Willis Oehler club and had our own private club. Stayed in a run down trailer across the road.
Will never forget watching the geese pour out of the refuge at 3:05 and pile into our field. The last 3 days when you could hunt until dark were always crazy!
Wish it was still like that, nothing like it anymore that I'm aware of.

and was reminded of my own late '70s Southern Illinois pilgrimage and being insanely jealous of their goose hunting - until I ventured onto Maryland's Eastern Shore and shifted that focus. Holy cow, the geese there were something to see. At that point in the early '80s, a Maryland Guides' Association was newly formed to lobby for lowering their limit from three geese to two, in order get out of their fields quicker and decrease pressure on the birds. But it wasn't all that long before that Association was fighting to keep their season open for just a one bird and lost. Bastages in NY and PA short-stopped their birds.

Fast forward, and Maryland again has a substantial (2 bird, 60? day) migratory Canada season, as well as both early and late resident bird seasons. Don't know how that came about, but suppose it's a ray of hope.

[Ducaholic]

None of that should be read as pointed at Darren or anyone else in particular, just used the quote as a jumping-off point for my little rant.

Rick...I don't know anyone with half their wits that thinks we can or should even try to force others to stop what they are doing successfully to give us back what we once had. For me it's a chance to blow off some steam and continue to talk ducks because let's be honest it's still in the blood. The season has been closed for less than a month and it's the period of time when it's too nasty outdoors to do much of anything.

Once March arrives and temps begin to rise thoughts of fishing and honey do's will replace this past seasons successes and failures. I'm grateful for my opportunities I have had and will continue as long as the Lord says the same.

By July we will once again start thinking about the upcoming seasons, things we can do better, things we learned from the previous year with hopes that more of the variables that control our success line up in our favor.

It's what hunters have done for a lifetime and I'm just happy to be able to say I have seen it all. The best of times and times when things were not so good. It's called life and those that continue to grind are the hunters that will be most successful no matter what the next season brings.

Amen!

[Darren]

Rick...I don't know anyone with half their wits that thinks we can or should even try to force others to stop what they are doing successfully to give us back what we once had.

And therein lies the matter at hand with this upstart waterfowl federation group; what are you REALLY going to do about what others are doing north of us?? From my perspective, I just don't see how a gathering of ranters is going to make anyone stop what's working so well for them.

Rick, the crowd I'm largely speaking about.......half have never heard of the point system, and most have not been around in the sport long enough to know the grand days that the old timers speak of. They only know what they've seen in last 10 or so years because these are very much Johnny-come-lately hunters. These are also, currently, the loudest voices in the online debates that rage on, just check out louisianasportsman.com over last few weeks. This is the contingent that has just enough money, equipment, and gumption to chase birds from all the places they once rested, and let Larry know loud and clear when the hunting is slower than they think it should be. So now we have this organization that appears to me to be largely made up of this crowd. Will be interesting to see how it evolves

[Ericdc]

Like the Louisiana waterfowl alliance or whatever it was


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[DComeaux]

The more I think about and discuss this the more I'm leaning to a stopping scenario. If the duck gurus during the BP spill thought it was possible to short stop or change migration routes, this gets has got me wondering. Build it and they will come, or stop, depending on your intentions.

Be careful with that logic. The duck gurus in Louisiana told the NRCS in the first teleconference that initiated the Migratory Bird Habitat Initiative that it would not work. I personally told the head of NRCS with dozens of others on the call that the dominant species that winter in oil-effected habitats of SE LA would not be stopped by shallow-flooded agricultural habitat. And what happened? SE LA wintered twice the long-term average number of ducks in 2010-11. Why? Because we ran every freshwater diversion at capacity starting in late-April, and we had fantastic habitat conditions.

Larry, I want you to know that in no way was this aimed at you, and my choice of words was poor. What I was trying to convey is that the idea of changing the migration must be plausible if those who's job it is, is wrapped around nothing but ducks, day in and day out. All we get is one liners in most articles and we hear nothing else about it. Thanks for your input.

I'm pretty sure the dominant species for that oil affected area would be divers. We need many more fresh water diversions along the coast. The one in the works that will directly affect my current blind has hit a budgetary road block. This I found out through an email a few weeks ago. It was supposed to start last February, but is now back in engineering to see where cuts could be made, and I'd assume the offshore dredging may have put it over.

The wife and I made a trip to the camp in Chenier this morning to check on things. I took a route going that took us south of Kaplan, through Pecan Island to Chenier. Coming home we did the Creole, big burns run north, than east through Bell City, Hayes, Thornwell, Lake Arthur, and Gueydan. We didn't see much of anything. Few BW along the road in Chenier, and the burns had a few bundles of coot, diver mix. Saw a few groups of pintail near Thornwell. I would have loved to run the marsh for a better view of things.

[Ducaholic]

Like the Louisiana waterfowl alliance or whatever it was


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Not at all. LWA was a org. of much older gentlemen and none of them used the internet as a platform.

[Ericdc]

Like the Louisiana waterfowl alliance or whatever it was


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Not at all. LWA was a org. of much older gentlemen and none of them used the internet as a platform.

I guess i meant it hasn’t really developed anymore as an org


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[Ericdc]

The more I think about and discuss this the more I'm leaning to a stopping scenario. If the duck gurus during the BP spill thought it was possible to short stop or change migration routes, this gets has got me wondering. Build it and they will come, or stop, depending on your intentions.

Be careful with that logic. The duck gurus in Louisiana told the NRCS in the first teleconference that initiated the Migratory Bird Habitat Initiative that it would not work. I personally told the head of NRCS with dozens of others on the call that the dominant species that winter in oil-effected habitats of SE LA would not be stopped by shallow-flooded agricultural habitat. And what happened? SE LA wintered twice the long-term average number of ducks in 2010-11. Why? Because we ran every freshwater diversion at capacity starting in late-April, and we had fantastic habitat conditions.

Larry, I want you to know that in no way was this aimed at you, and my choice of words was poor. What I was trying to convey is that the idea of changing the migration must be plausible if those who's job it is, is wrapped around nothing but ducks, day in and day out. All we get is one liners in most articles and we hear nothing else about it. Thanks for your input.

I'm pretty sure the dominant species for that oil affected area would be divers. We need many more fresh water diversions along the coast. The one in the works that will directly affect my current blind has hit a budgetary road block. This I found out through an email a few weeks ago. It was supposed to start last February, but is now back in engineering to see where cuts could be made, and I'd assume the offshore dredging may have put it over.

The wife and I made a trip to the camp in Chenier this morning to check on things. I took a route going that took us south of Kaplan, through Pecan Island to Chenier. Coming home we did the Creole, big burns run north, than east through Bell City, Hayes, Thornwell, Lake Arthur, and Gueydan. We didn't see much of anything. Few BW along the road in Chenier, and the burns had a few bundles of coot, diver mix. Saw a few groups of pintail near Thornwell. I would have loved to run the marsh for a better view of things.

Went up to jones to get 4 wheeler today and there is slack water everywhere in the fields. Also saw a lot of snows scattered all over from Mer Rouge to jones. Saw a few ducks but tons of geese.


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