Post Season

[DComeaux]

I've been busy on other sites and behind the scenes trying to get to the bottom of this migration issue, and I think the tide my be turning, ever so slightly. I found out a lot of interesting stuff, and know big money is in the way.

OVER Commercialization of waterfowl hunting is our biggest obstacle. I liken it to welfare, though it may be easier to adjust.

This is a bit lengthy but a good read, if you have the time. Funny how these things get squashed from the public viewing. Maybe I missed it, but I don't ever remember seeing this published in hunting articles. It was conducted on mallards, but I'm sure it translates to other dabblers as well. We were covered up with GW this year, all season. I'm guessing they're too short to reach the corn on the cob.

http://www.fwspubs.org/doi/full/10.3996/022012-JFWM-019?code=ufws-site

[Ducaholic]

Pretty clear what's happening. Check out Missouri's waterfowl counts every year and note which NWR's and WMA's load up. Then go to the website associated with that area and check out what type of food source they offer.

[DComeaux]

Pretty clear what's happening. Check out Missouri's waterfowl counts every year and note which NWR's and WMA's load up. Then go to the website associated with that area and check out what type of food source they offer.

Been there..... Illinois held a record number of gadwall in December of last year. I was wondering where our bread and butter birds were. Illinois has been quiet on this issue, other than "aunt betty" mentioning it a time or two.

[DComeaux]

Pulled this from the article.

"Perceived changes in harvest in the Mississippi Flyway (Green and Krementz 2008) raised additional interest in autumn migration of mallards during the later 1990s and early 2000s. Hunters in the lower half of the Mississippi Flyway, especially in Arkansas, were concerned that the abundance of mallards during the first half of the hunting season was noticeably reduced (L.W.N., unpublished data; Green and Krementz 2008). Many hunters and biologists attributed the supposed declines to “short-stopping” (shortened waterfowl migration movements resulting from human-induced habitat changes);"

"."The findings and conclusions in this article are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily represent the views of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service" ............So the feds don't want to poke this bear?

"The reasons for so few mallards, especially male mallards, returning to Arkansas the following year deserves further research"

[SpinnerMan]

"The reasons for so few mallards, especially male mallards, returning to Arkansas the following year deserves further research"

Maybe it was because the last time they went there some asshole trapped them and stuck this damn radio on their back that they've had to lug around ever since

"mallards that winter in the Delta are exposed to high disturbance and high mortality rates from hunter harvest pressure there, and in subsequent winters, surviving mallards remain further north where harvest pressures are lower"

"We hypothesize that mallards surviving a winter in the Delta forgo high food availability in subsequent winters in favor of higher survival to the north of Arkansas."

With the long period of long seasons and high bag limits, this has to have some impact on the birds. Where I grew up, there were ducks around and in pretty big numbers after the season closed. Then the resident Canada geese began to appear an this attracted more hunters. Then the longer seasons came which meant ducks I was watching while hunting geese were now getting shot. Go back there now and I don't see a single duck most times I drive for miles along the river. There aren't that many geese any more either once people figured out how to hunt them.

Once duck season closes up here in mid December, and a week later in the central zone, unless there is a pile of snow, there are big numbers of ducks. Lots of food and no hunting pressure. Whether the birds learn or just less of them get killed and make more the next year, my guess is that natural selection and learning are both playing a big part. You all are banging away on them for over a month after we can do nothing but enjoy the show.

[DComeaux]

"The reasons for so few mallards, especially male mallards, returning to Arkansas the following year deserves further research"

Maybe it was because the last time they went there some asshole trapped them and stuck this damn radio on their back that they've had to lug around ever since

I was thinking the same thing...Poor birds.

"mallards that winter in the Delta are exposed to high disturbance and high mortality rates from hunter harvest pressure there, and in subsequent winters, surviving mallards remain further north where harvest pressures are lower"

"We hypothesize that mallards surviving a winter in the Delta forgo high food availability in subsequent winters in favor of higher survival to the north of Arkansas."

This is understandable to me, and I do have feelings about it, but there is a price to pay for short stopping birds as well. If they don't want us shooting the birds, then close the season. They have the authority, and they can feed them all they want. They'd be totally undisturbed.

With the long period of long seasons and high bag limits, this has to have some impact on the birds. Where I grew up, there were ducks around and in pretty big numbers after the season closed. Then the resident Canada geese began to appear an this attracted more hunters. Then the longer seasons came which meant ducks I was watching while hunting geese were now getting shot. Go back there now and I don't see a single duck most times I drive for miles along the river. There aren't that many geese any more either once people figured out how to hunt them.

I, and I think, quite a few would have no problems with smaller bag limits and a slightly shorter season, especially guides that have to deal with the must get a limit guy's.

Once duck season closes up here in mid December, and a week later in the central zone, unless there is a pile of snow, there are big numbers of ducks. Lots of food and no hunting pressure. Whether the birds learn or just less of them get killed and make more the next year, my guess is that natural selection and learning are both playing a big part. You all are banging away on them for over a month after we can do nothing but enjoy the show.

[/quote][/quote]

Back in the once upon a time, the ducks had left your area for warmer climates further south by seasons end. Now with the food abundance they're sticking around. We, man, have change a natural migration through manipulation for self gratification. I've heard grumbling about extending the seasons up north. How about we get our migration back on track.

I want to say, that none of this is pointed at you spinneman, just laying out my view and understanding of things.

[Ducaholic]

Comeaux you have become very passionate about this situation....

[Darren]

OVER Commercialization of waterfowl hunting is our biggest obstacle.

This this this! Stay on 'em!

[Rick]

OVER Commercialization of waterfowl hunting is our biggest obstacle.

This this this! Stay on 'em!

To what end? (Taxpayer supported socialized waterfowling ought to be hugely popular.)

[DComeaux]

Sure hope the goose season stays the current length. 2 specks are fine with me. And the population is in good shape.

Geese aren't being considered in this mess, as I haven't seen any videos of em walking around in flooded standing corn, yet. We know where the specks are stopping, or heading back to every year. I heard-tell of a transmitter speck leaving Louisiana, showing up in Indiana in early January, this, during the big chill.(reliable/qualified source) They assumed they had come from the north. Their flight survey the next to last week in January showed an influx of those and pintail.

[SpinnerMan]

I want to say, that none of this is pointed at you spinneman, just laying out my view and understanding of things.

I know it was not pointed at me. Just letting you know what I see on my end and the dramatic shift I saw back where I grew up.

As far as this.

Now with the food abundance they're sticking around. We, man, have change a natural migration through manipulation for self gratification.

I really don't think it is those specifically feeding ducks that are the primary culprit.

Large cooling lakes - the one that I hunt by in the winter began operations in 1988. A lot of these came on line in the 70's and 80's. There are also a lot of smaller warm water discharges that keep plenty of water open.

No till farming. It began to be adopted as a widespread practice in the same time period.

This meant plenty of refuges spread all over the place along with a practically unlimited supply of food.

This is never going to change. The birds that are short stopping because of this are not going to stop short stopping.

They are virtually unmolested, sleep in a bathtub, and have unlimited food in all directions. Those ducks are going to multiply.

I think the answer, if there is, is a more uniform seasons. If Illinois were to split the season into early and late. If they let me hunt ducks the entire month of October and January, I'd be very happy.

Three three week seasons (63 days total) the same from north to south might be better. Mid September to early October, mid November to early December and the first or last 3 weeks of January. That way those birds around here in late goose will get pressured. Short stopping doesn't mean they are unhunted like they are now.

For me this would be perfect. Woodies and local mallard season. Then a season hunting the birds migrating through. Then a season hunting the late season birds. Most people only hunt 1 or 2 of these and want to maximize either early, middle or late, so they would hate it. Same with those that hunt many states, but I think it is the best balance and allows us the benefit of hunting those short stopping birds and makes it less advantageous for the birds to short stop. I think it actually works OK for you guys at the far end. An extended teal season, the first migrators, and then the last migrators.

It would also stop a lot of the nonsense politics around here. They drew absurd boundaries a few years ago to benefit some big money flooded corn operations like you are talking about. It helped them out and screwed all the river hunters out of their best hunting at the end of the season.

[DComeaux]

OVER Commercialization of waterfowl hunting is our biggest obstacle.

This this this! Stay on 'em!

To what end? (Taxpayer supported socialized waterfowling ought to be hugely popular.)

Hunting lodges and guides can have at it. They can do this without legal baiting. The UFWS and State agencies need to stop planting corn on refuges. Let's do this for a a few years and see if it makes a difference in migration. That's all we're asking. The commercial guy's are the biggest opponents of this change. No one will get shut down, and you can still flood the same (HARVESTED) fields you hunt now. Way too much money floating around going to the wrong crap, tax dollars and donations. Just like welfare, the government let this go to far, or maybe it was intentional, but fortunately this is a bit more manageable. It doesn't cost anything to stop planting corn, matter of fact, they should have less expenditures and increased profit.

I could ramble on about commercialization of other wild things that have affected me and others.

[DComeaux]

I want to say, that none of this is pointed at you spinneman, just laying out my view and understanding of things.

I know it was not pointed at me. Just letting you know what I see on my end and the dramatic shift I saw back where I grew up.

As far as this.

Now with the food abundance they're sticking around. We, man, have change a natural migration through manipulation for self gratification.

I really don't think it is those specifically feeding ducks that are the primary culprit.

Large cooling lakes - the one that I hunt by in the winter began operations in 1988. A lot of these came on line in the 70's and 80's. There are also a lot of smaller warm water discharges that keep plenty of water open.

No till farming. It began to be adopted as a widespread practice in the same time period.

This meant plenty of refuges spread all over the place along with a practically unlimited supply of food.

This is never going to change. The birds that are short stopping because of this are not going to stop short stopping.

They are virtually unmolested, sleep in a bathtub, and have unlimited food in all directions. Those ducks are going to multiply.

I think the answer, if there is, is a more uniform seasons. If Illinois were to split the season into early and late. If they let me hunt ducks the entire month of October and January, I'd be very happy.

Three three week seasons (63 days total) the same from north to south might be better. Mid September to early October, mid November to early December and the first or last 3 weeks of January. That way those birds around here in late goose will get pressured. Short stopping doesn't mean they are unhunted like they are now.

For me this would be perfect. Woodies and local mallard season. Then a season hunting the birds migrating through. Then a season hunting the late season birds. Most people only hunt 1 or 2 of these and want to maximize either early, middle or late, so they would hate it. Same with those that hunt many states, but I think it is the best balance and allows us the benefit of hunting those short stopping birds and makes it less advantageous for the birds to short stop. I think it actually works OK for you guys at the far end. An extended teal season, the first migrators, and then the last migrators.

It would also stop a lot of the nonsense politics around here. They drew absurd boundaries a few years ago to benefit some big money flooded corn operations like you are talking about. It helped them out and screwed all the river hunters out of their best hunting at the end of the season.

Nothing we can do about cooling lakes and such, and this no til farming stuff has me flustered. Is the harvest machinery used today less efficient then in years past? In this no till farming, are they not using herbicides? This is what I found for an explanation of not ill farming.

"No-till farming (also called zero tillage or direct drilling) is a way of growing crops or pasture from year to year without disturbing the soil through tillage. ... In many agricultural regions it can reduce or eliminate soil erosion.

So exactly how does this equate to more seed on the ground after harvest? Unless the farmer is leaving a small gap in the gate, I don't see in this process a distribution of grain. Before the no til BS story, was that the machinery today was more efficient at harvest collection, thus the birds not showing up. I can understand plowing and leveling the fields covers grain/seed, but as I mentioned, today's fields are spotless (no weed/seed grasses) exist in a grain crop. So what are they eating?

[Rick]

Pretty sure Spinnerman is spot on, and flooded corn and ice-eaters and pumps are a drop in the bucket compared to no-till and non-hunter and natural or industrial sources of open water. And if you could stop folks from flooding unharvested crops, why not stop the flooding of waste grain, too? Or creating any private habit, for that matter? Argument for it would be much the same. Someone else needs to give something up, so we can enjoy a bigger share of it.

Me, I'm thinking we, all of us putting gun pressure on waterfowl are the biggest manageable part of the problem. Don't know about you guys, but I don't want to give it up. (Might go for eliminating a few days a week - but would lobby for one of them being a weekend day.)

Re: commercial operations, they're the only practical way an awful lot of people can stay in the game at least a few days each season, so maybe we should shut them down.

[DComeaux]

Rick, I've been immersed in this migration stuff for quite a few days now, and have run through the gamut of emotion and thought. All we can do is try to eliminate the obvious, (process of elimination) or just drop the subject and do nothing. No one has facts, but opinions abound, with some swayed by money and or greed. We,man, did an awesome job in the nesting grounds through intervention, I would think we could change a migration. Lets eliminate what we can, and live with what we can't. It will cost nothing to try.

[DComeaux]

As for the no till farming thing, the way I understand it, is fields aren’t worked (tilled) after the harvest like they are down south (when Weather is dry enough to allow it), thus leaving any scattered grain accessible to migrating waterfowl on the ground surface and not tilled under like it has been in Arkansas, Mississippi, and parts of Louisiana for the last two seasons (SUPER dry Falls).

I like the energy with which you’re going after this, but in my opinion, I’m afraid the refuges, while playing a part, don’t play near the part that farming practices and gun pressure do. Farmers down here used to flood fields in the winter for weed control and other reasons. With the advancement in roundup ready this and that as well as other chemicals, they no longer have to flood fields. They just till them in the fall and spray in the spring. Add that to the fact that more soybeans are being planted in lieu of rice, and it ain’t good. Waste beans go bad after a few days of being flooded. Rice lasts much longer. Couple that with increased ag production in Missouri and other states to the west, and it’s not looking good for the south end of the Flyway.

I am aware of all you mention, and most we can't do a damn thing about, but we have to at least eliminate that which we can. I can't sit around and do nothing when there's a possibility for change. (hunting season is too far away ) I was really skeptical at first, but the more I dug, and the more private conversations I had, it lit my fire. Maybe in the near future some of these things will come to light. I think it's time to quit posting on this and let things in motion play out.

[DComeaux]

I have to say, and have in other conversations, that I/we were content with our duck season last year. (Did we see the dabblers that history held for that marsh?) (Did we shoot limits on every hunt?) No, but we got our share of birds, and it could've been better. Why not try. We have nothing to lose but our hunting heritage.

Maybe this effort will go beyond flooded corn, maybe, just maybe, it'll wake up a few of those that could actually make a difference down here.

[SpinnerMan]

So exactly how does this equate to more seed on the ground after harvest?

It equates to the same seed on the ground after harvest, but it all remains available to the waterfowl. Duck Engr described it pretty well.

today's fields are spotless (no weed/seed grasses) exist in a grain crop. So what are they eating?

They are eating the waste grain.

If you've never walked through a corn field after it is harvested, there is a whole lot of corn that ends up on the ground. Before no-till, the farmers would plow the fields after harvest and all of that waste grain would get turned under and be unavailable. Now it just lays there on the top like a giant smorgasbord for the ducks and geese.

There are 200,000 acres within a 10 mile radius. It's not unusual for the birds to fly 20 miles or more to feed. I'm sure it has to do with the fact that there are a whole bunch of us trying to shoot them within 10 miles. They have access to over a million acres from their roost. They are never going to make a dent in all that waste grain.

I believe they currently get around 160 to 170 bushels of corn per acre. Even if they lose only 1%, my guess is it is more like 5%, that would be almost 2 bushels of corn per acre. Each bushel weighs about 56 lbs. That's like dumping one 50 lb bags of corn every 150 feet. If it is more like 5%, then it would be one 50 lb bag of corn every 75 feet.

So within that million acres with probably 50% or more in corn, we are talking as much as 200 million pounds of corn on the ground

If that number sounds too large, Iowa alone harvests about 150,000 million pounds of corn. So it is leaving around 1,500 million pounds to 7,500 million pounds of corn on the ground for the ducks and geese.

Soybeans are probably even worse as far as waste grain, but the beans tend to disintegrate. The corn is still there in perfect shape all through the winter. I usually jokingly bait, by tossing an ear or two that is laying on the ground into the X for the spread when things are dead.

[DComeaux]

I can see where that grain can fall when shaken by the cutter, and don't doubt it's happening, but was told some years ago in reference to not having birds that the machinery today didn't leave much behind. It just seems the narrative changes to suit the situation.....Ethanol is the devil.

[SpinnerMan]

I can see where that grain can fall when shaken by the cutter, and don't doubt it's happening, but was told some years ago in reference to not having birds that the machinery today didn't leave much behind. It just seems the narrative changes to suit the situation.....

I've walked through cornfields my entire life. There is always a lot left on the ground. A lot is relative. 1% loss rate when producing 200 bushels per acre is 2 bushels of corn and that is shelled kernels and not whole cobs. I don't know who said it leaves nothing behind. They couldn't have been talking about corn or they didn't know what they were talking about.

Ethanol is the devil.

Ethanol is horrible. Although it would have no practical impact on the waste grain. What it has done is pushed farmers to put all kinds of marginal land into production. The land most valuable for wildlife and least valuable to the farmer, which is why it was not turned into farmland originally, gets ripped up and put into crops because it is worth ripping out the brush and trees and putting in drain tiles. The fence rows and ditches are kept much cleaner so the edges don't get shaded, etc. One warm winter, every day we were goose hunting, the farmer was ripping out trees and brush.

Another thing about a grainfield in winter up here. It is a barren wasteland for every other species of wildlife except for ducks and geese using it to feed and the deer and other animals that feed at night. There is no shelter from the environment. Now they are ripping out what is left of that.

[DComeaux]

Ethanol is the devil.

Ethanol is horrible. Although it would have no practical impact on the waste grain. What it has done is pushed farmers to put all kinds of marginal land into production. The land most valuable for wildlife and least valuable to the farmer, which is why it was not turned into farmland originally, gets ripped up and put into crops because it is worth ripping out the brush and trees and putting in drain tiles. The fence rows and ditches are kept much cleaner so the edges don't get shaded, etc. One warm winter, every day we were goose hunting, the farmer was ripping out trees and brush.

Another thing about a grainfield in winter up here. It is a barren wasteland for every other species of wildlife except for ducks and geese using it to feed and the deer and other animals that feed at night. There is no shelter from the environment. Now they are ripping out what is left of that.

This is worse then the migration issue.

[DComeaux]

I can see where that grain can fall when shaken by the cutter, and don't doubt it's happening, but was told some years ago in reference to not having birds that the machinery today didn't leave much behind. It just seems the narrative changes to suit the situation.....

I've walked through cornfields my entire life. There is always a lot left on the ground. A lot is relative. 1% loss rate when producing 200 bushels per acre is 2 bushels of corn and that is shelled kernels and not whole cobs. I don't know who said it leaves nothing behind. They couldn't have been talking about corn or they didn't know what they were talking about.

I grew up on a farm and was sure this was smoke. I was only pointing at the excuses used in different situations to deflect.

[DComeaux]

Nope..I don't think teal can do this. Honestly, what is the difference..........

[SpinnerMan]

Ethanol is the devil.

Ethanol is horrible. Although it would have no practical impact on the waste grain. What it has done is pushed farmers to put all kinds of marginal land into production. The land most valuable for wildlife and least valuable to the farmer, which is why it was not turned into farmland originally, gets ripped up and put into crops because it is worth ripping out the brush and trees and putting in drain tiles. The fence rows and ditches are kept much cleaner so the edges don't get shaded, etc. One warm winter, every day we were goose hunting, the farmer was ripping out trees and brush.

Another thing about a grainfield in winter up here. It is a barren wasteland for every other species of wildlife except for ducks and geese using it to feed and the deer and other animals that feed at night. There is no shelter from the environment. Now they are ripping out what is left of that.

This is worse then the migration issue.

Way worse in my opinion.