Post Season

[aunt betty]

Don't have a lot of contact with farmers but can share one story about a "waterway".

Farmer buddy was fighting with the gubment for a few years over how his waterway had eroded and BAD.
It was real bad. Talking about what we called a "swale" in civil engineering or surveying class.

His had somehow burrowed under and made it's own tunnel that eroded and caved in.
Deep sink holes kind of stuff. I hunted there and them holes could swallow a man up easy.

So Doug was fighting with USDA over who's gunna pay to fix this?!?!
After a few years of being denied he figured out how to get the money.
He destroyed the waterway. Dozed it. Then applied for a large grant to re-build it and got his money.
Came out ahead on the deal too. Smart old guy.

[Ericdc]

Nope..I don't think teal can do this. Honestly, what is the difference..........

this convo is way more civil than the other sites. I like. And I hope something will change or else according to that video and like u said I better get used to shooting teal and divers who can’t reach(but I, guessing they could easily adjust the water level so that prolly isn’t an issue)


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I wouldn’t worry about teal and divers being short stopped by flooded corn, probably wouldn’t worry about gadwall much either. They’re after seeds and aquatics.

Flooded moist soil.... that’s a different story.


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[DComeaux]

Nope..I don't think teal can do this. Honestly, what is the difference..........

this convo is way more civil than the other sites. I like. And I hope something will change or else according to that video and like u said I better get used to shooting teal and divers who can’t reach(but I, guessing they could easily adjust the water level so that prolly isn’t an issue)


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I wouldn’t worry about teal and divers being short stopped by flooded corn, probably wouldn’t worry about gadwall much either. They’re after seeds and aquatics.

Flooded moist soil.... that’s a different story.


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There's a couple of gaddys in tight to the camera.

[Ducaholic]

Agree with EricDC on MSU's. Every large operation in the Miss. Flyway offers a buffet type food setting to meet waterfowls migration and wintering needs. Same goes for WMA/NWR food plots. To put it simply they got it figured out. Limit pressure and provide the right food at the right time ='s the ducks responding favorably much to our chagrin. Gaddy's IMO are more likely to be feeding on invertebrates in that corn field than the actual grain.

[DComeaux]

IMOO, MSU's have limitations and would be abandoned during extreme cold events. Those, again IMOO, do not have the holding power that corn does. This state is full of natural moist soil areas, especially in the southern half of the State.

These birds will go the easiest route to obtain food, and will remain in adverse conditions if there is an ample supply available. Imprinting is real, so even if they make it down here during a strong weather push, it's back to the buffet they go during a warm up. They've done this in the past, as transmitter studies have shown, but it was only to Arkansas, and they'd trade back and forth with every weather push, all. season. long.

[Ericdc]

Weather

Refuges

Pressure

Landscape changes in ag land with leveling, early and efficient harvest.

The lower miss delta is mostly a food desert now (quoting from Bradley Ramsey who’s a waterfowl habitat guy)









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[Ericdc]

Millions of acres of no till farming north of us that used to be filled, and we are tilling up everything.


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[DComeaux]

Weather

Refuges

Pressure

Landscape changes in ag land with leveling, early and efficient harvest.

The lower miss delta is mostly a food desert now (quoting from Bradley Ramsey who’s a waterfowl habitat guy) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bradley Ramsey--- Manages Ducks by design (habitat Consultant)... I don't believe he's sympathetic to our issue.

[aunt betty]

Have much experience hunting over flooded corn.

One year I arrived at the famous walk-ins to be told by all these idiots that "the corn is ate out".
So I walked out and took a look once the sun came up.

You see the corn is standing with ears on it. The water soaks the ears, they germinate, and the kernals pop off.
There was a golden carpet if you took the time to let the mud settle you could see it thru dick-deep water.
Them idiots thought I was stupid or something. If you looked at the ears they were bare. Had to look a little lower.

[Ericdc]

His work is in the lower miss delta, and it’s mostly moist soil. As far as what’s changed in the region I hunt, he’s pretty knowledgeable.

The hunting in northeast LA has declined with the hunting on the coast.

If you are only looking out for the hunting south of I-10.... I guess not haha.


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[DComeaux]

His work is in the lower miss delta, and it’s mostly moist soil. As far as what’s changed in the region I hunt, he’s pretty knowledgeable.

The hunting in northeast LA has declined with the hunting on the coast.

If you are only looking out for the hunting south of I-10.... I guess not haha.


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I'm wanting the birds back in this State.

I don't doubt the farming acreage in the northeastern part of the state has changed, and ducks don't eat cotton. But you have to get birds in order for them to use what you have.

I will not be convinced of anything until there is a trial period (study) over several years of no corn for ducks. Just remember, all of these so called, and some, self proclaimed experts will do and say things to protect their lively hood.

[Ericdc]

The cotton pretty much grows on the higher ground up here, it’s the plowed up rice and bean fields in the low areas that once held sheetwater and weren’t plowed that hurts us.

The landscape just isn’t as duck friendly as it once was, and as most of east Arkansas still is.






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[DComeaux]

Here's some stats compiled by a Canadian Biologist for the Flyway Federation of Louisiana. The graphs came yesterday and remarks he added today.

32207327_175354986620294_6750965849395298304_n.jpg

32145838_175355003286959_3221814234706870272_n.jpg

[DComeaux]

The Canadians are not happy with this corn issue either, as it is spilling over (pun intended) into their country. Locals are complaining of duck operations pulling birds from hunters in a given area.

[SpinnerMan]

I'm wanting the birds back in this State.

I'm wanted to keep them in my state and get even more

Think about what you are asking. Give up your birds so I can have more. I'm just not thinking that's going to go over. What's in it for those giving up the birds so you can have more?

If you could afford to do the flooded corn thing, would you? I wouldn't have the slightest moral qualms about doing it. I doubt most people would not do it if they had the means to do so. I spend a lot of time and effort planting food plots for deer. I see no difference. My sole goal is baiting, legally of course.

Personally, I think the baiting laws do nothing but screw the average guy. Oh, wait, that field wasn't harvested under normal procedures, so you are a criminal for hunting it even though you had no way to know. This is a real issue in drought years when fields are written off as a loss and not harvest. The farm has to cut and shred the field. So now that field and every adjacent field is now "baited" and illegal.

https://www.fws.gov/le/waterfowl-hunting-and-baiting.html

How close to bait can you hunt without breaking the law? There is no set distance. The law prohibits hunting if bait is present that could lure or attract birds to, on, or over areas where hunters are attempting to take them. Distance will vary depending on the circumstances and such factors as topography, weather, and waterfowl flight patterns. Therefore, this question can only be answered on a case-by-case basis.

Basically, if the neighboring farm has a mechanical breakdown and dumps a pile of corn in the next field over, you could get hammered for baiting. We actually had this situation at my goose club. Fortunately, the club owner went out hunting and watched ducks just pile in and pile in next door. He thought, wait a minute, that just seems odd. So he took a hike over there and there was a big old pile of corn that every duck in the county was chowing down on. He called the local warden, explained the situation, and him and a few other guys went over and scraped up every kernel of corn. Nobody hunted the area for 10 days and we were good. Just as easily, if a warden had seen the pile and thought it was someone trying something, they could have ended up getting hammered for hunting a baited area. Just wait until the animal righters figure out that they can bait the adjacent property and put your hunting out of business.

I had some idiot at my other club dump his rotten apples about 50 yards from one of my tree stands. I'm sure he thought he was doing good and feeding the wildlife with apples from his backyard, but again, it would have gotten me in huge trouble if I hadn't happened by and saw a couple apples the critters drug out of the bushes and went WTF and then proceeded to clean them all up. However, it would be 100% legal for me to plant an apple orchard for no other purpose than to attract deer, which we are working on Dump a bushel of apples and I'm a criminal. Let the trees dump 500 bushels and I'm legal.

A farmer back in PA through a bunch of rotten apples in his manure spreader to get rid of them. A friend of the farmer hunting on the property got the book thrown at him for hunting deer. The farmer over reacted and after that posted the farm and shot every deer he saw for crop damage and called the warden to come and pick it up

I'm of the opinion, bait away if you want. The people with a lot of money are already doing it and we really can't stop them. It's just the people without money that can't and honest people get screwed by the totally subjective rules and can easily be punished when they really had no reason to know. To actually bait enough to make a difference costs a crap load. If the average guy like me has a goose pit in a field that is lost to a drought, instead of being out of business for the season, you just got a freeby on baiting without having to jump through all these hoops.

[aunt betty]

Wait a dog gone minute guys...



Do you really think flooded corn in east Tennessee could work?

[DComeaux]

I'm wanting the birds back in this State.

I'm wanted to keep them in my state and get even more

Think about what you are asking. Give up your birds so I can have more. I'm just not thinking that's going to go over. What's in it for those giving up the birds so you can have more?

So you agree the north is short stopping or has changed the migration?

That's not even close to my thinking. I want people to stop baiting and let the natural migration return to what it was. We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January. It has been this way forever. It's part of migration. Should I plant corn to see if I can keep those all to myself until our season ends?

[SpinnerMan]

So you agree the north is short stopping or has changed the migration?

That's not even close to my thinking. I want people to stop baiting and let the natural migration return to what it was. We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January. It has been this way forever. It's part of migration. Should I plant corn to see if I can keep those all to myself until our season ends?

My point is that the migration has changed and it is little to nothing to do with baiting. I just went for a walk this evening. I normally walk on the path next to the cornfield, but decided to walk through the corn because of our discussion. I didn't find as much corn as I expected, but even now in May there were kernels of corn in perfect shape to be found. And this is a small field in the suburbs that has geese, ducks, doves, wrens, and every other type of bird that eats corn feeding in it since it was picked last November.

I know what happened to the geese in Illinois and clearly to a lesser extent the mallards. It had nothing to do with baiting. It was three things that happened simultaneously that will not be undone. These were the cooling lakes, the no till farming, and resident geese. Southern Illinois use to be a Canada goose mecca and all the guides and outfitters were pretty much put out of business. Now a lot of them were able to shift over to ducks and now snow geese, but Northeast Illinois is where these migratory geese mostly stop, if they even make it this far south. As Betty mentioned earlier, where the snow line is is where the geese are. Actually it depends on the depth of the snow. A lot of mallards do the same thing.

Goose decoys make good mallard decoys, so I assume real geese make even better mallard decoys. I would be surprised if the same thing is not playing out all across the flyways.

I really think the primary thing baiting does is concentrate ducks that were going to be in the area anyways.

We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January.

Which species? Obviously the BWT are not heading to points south of you because of lack of food or weather. There have always been a large fraction of mallards and black ducks that move no further south than necessary. When I hunted on the Susquehanna River in the mid 80's. The river would freeze up to my town. South was open water. North was froze solid. Duck season was closed and we'd see lots of ducks and geese. Nearly all the ducks were mallards or black ducks. That was their "natural" migration. Then the season went to 60 days and there is no refuges in the area. Now you won't see a single duck on the river or geese even any more.

Should I plant corn to see if I can keep those all to myself until our season ends?

If you want to invest the time and money, why not?

I really don't think that is the primary factor though, at least for mallards. I think it's the three things I mentioned earlier.

Any mallard that head as far south as you is going to have a much higher odds of dying than the mallards that have always naturally stopped short. Lots of them have always stopped short. This wasn't true in the past when the food supply up north was much lower quality.

Then came the other two factors.

No-till farming provided an unlimited supply of high energy food for the birds that feed in dry fields. So the short stopped birds are much better fed. That means they have bigger broods and greater breeding success. Not unlike what happened to the snow geese, but not nearly as dramatically.

The third was the cooling lakes, warm water discharges, aerators, etc. leaving a huge amount of open water where there used to be very little. It was always natural for many mallards to go no further south than necessary and now it's only necessary when the snow is deep since they can find open water without a problem at least in this part of the world.

[SpinnerMan]

So you agree the north is short stopping or has changed the migration?

That's not even close to my thinking. I want people to stop baiting and let the natural migration return to what it was. We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January. It has been this way forever. It's part of migration. Should I plant corn to see if I can keep those all to myself until our season ends?

My point is that the migration has changed and it is little to nothing to do with baiting. I just went for a walk this evening. I normally walk on the path next to the cornfield, but decided to walk through the corn because of our discussion. I didn't find as much corn as I expected, but even now in May there were kernels of corn in perfect shape to be found. And this is a small field in the suburbs that has geese, ducks, doves, wrens, and every other type of bird that eats corn feeding in it since it was picked last November.

I know what happened to the geese in Illinois and clearly to a lesser extent the mallards. It had nothing to do with baiting. It was three things that happened simultaneously that will not be undone. These were the cooling lakes, the no till farming, and resident geese. Southern Illinois use to be a Canada goose mecca and all the guides and outfitters were pretty much put out of business. Now a lot of them were able to shift over to ducks and now snow geese, but Northeast Illinois is where these migratory geese mostly stop, if they even make it this far south. As Betty mentioned earlier, where the snow line is is where the geese are. Actually it depends on the depth of the snow. A lot of mallards do the same thing.

Goose decoys make good mallard decoys, so I assume real geese make even better mallard decoys. I would be surprised if the same thing is not playing out all across the flyways.

I really think the primary thing baiting does is concentrate ducks that were going to be in the area anyways.

We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January.

Which species? Obviously the BWT are not heading to points south of you because of lack of food or weather. There have always been a large fraction of mallards and black ducks that move no further south than necessary. When I hunted on the Susquehanna River in the mid 80's. The river would freeze up to my town. South was open water. North was froze solid. Duck season was closed and we'd see lots of ducks and geese. Nearly all the ducks were mallards or black ducks. That was their "natural" migration. Then the season went to 60 days and there is no refuges in the area. Now you won't see a single duck on the river or geese even any more.

Should I plant corn to see if I can keep those all to myself until our season ends?

If you want to invest the time and money, why not?

I really don't think that is the primary factor though, at least for mallards. I think it's the three things I mentioned earlier.

Any mallard that head as far south as you is going to have a much higher odds of dying than the mallards that have always naturally stopped short. They get banged on for over month longer if they go that far south. Lots of them have always stopped short. This wasn't true in the past when the food supply up north was much lower quality.

Then came the other two factors.

No-till farming provided an unlimited supply of high energy food for the birds that feed in dry fields. So the short stopped birds are much better fed now than they used to be. That means they have bigger broods and greater breeding success. Not unlike what happened to the snow geese, but not nearly as dramatically.

The third was the cooling lakes, warm water discharges, aerators, etc. leaving a huge amount of open water where there used to be very little. It was always natural for many mallards to go no further south than necessary and now it's only necessary when the snow is deep since they can find open water without a problem at least in this part of the world.

I might be wrong. I just now what I see around here and what I saw where I grew up.

[DComeaux]

I may have missed it in the previous discussion as I’ve been in and out, but what do you think the law should be DComeaux? Can’t hunt flooded, standing corn? Can’t leave standing corn and artificially flood it at all, whether you’re hunting it or not? Private and public or just want the refuges to stop doing it?

I/we would like to see all refuges go to moist soil units only, managing natural vegetation. What the feds do with the private flooded corn at that point is up to them. I would like to see everyone hunting harvested fields only, flooded or dry. If we could run this for a few years as a test, number of years TBD due to imprinting, and we see no change, then we've tried and it can be a free for all, if that's the direction people want to go. If we go back to legal baiting, then I want the option to spread corn in my brackish marsh.

We just went through something similar with bass in the Atchafalya basin. In 1992 hurricane Andrew came through this area and the LDWF put a 14" limit on all areas within and around the basin. This study was stopped only 3 or 4 years ago after people started grumbling, when due to the fact that we couldn't catch enough over 14" to make a meal. They released their study confirming my thoughts, that the mortality rate of these fish, due to hurricanes and other oxygen related issues would never allow the majority to grow in length. I can now take home my limit of 133/4 inch fish. We had to wait and be patient for over 20 years to allow them to do their study. I see where they've pulled this restriction for north LA lakes this year as well. I had some heated debates with the catch and release crowd on the sportsman over this issue in that time.

[DComeaux]

We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January.

Which species? Obviously the BWT are not heading to points south of you because of lack of food or weather. There have always been a large fraction of mallards and black ducks that move no further south than necessary. When I hunted on the Susquehanna River in the mid 80's. The river would freeze up to my town. South was open water. North was froze solid. Duck season was closed and we'd see lots of ducks and geese. Nearly all the ducks were mallards or black ducks. That was their "natural" migration. Then the season went to 60 days and there is no refuges in the area. Now you won't see a single duck on the river or geese even any more.

all species....Exactly, (see red highlight) they're not affected by the flooded corn, and continue a natural migration. They've always blown through here in September, and are still returning north, even now, today.

[aunt betty]

Well how about just organizing a political PAC, lobby Washington, and ban waterfowl hunting in the OTHER 49 STATES?

[Rick]

No gun pressure in the other states would be the worst possible scenario for Louisiana.

[aunt betty]

I'm sorry but this one is looking a lot like the facebook group called Arkansas Duck Hunters.
Those guys spent a huge amount of time discussing what kind of new ooser laws will bring back the good ole days.
It's over.

The good ole days are gone. They were sold by some bearded rascal from Louisiana. <---(wife told me to post that one)

You want to hate on someone? His name is Willy.


Hmm. Noticed my post is an hour old after just being posted. Is the server in Utah or what?

[SpinnerMan]

We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January.

Which species? Obviously the BWT are not heading to points south of you because of lack of food or weather. There have always been a large fraction of mallards and black ducks that move no further south than necessary. When I hunted on the Susquehanna River in the mid 80's. The river would freeze up to my town. South was open water. North was froze solid. Duck season was closed and we'd see lots of ducks and geese. Nearly all the ducks were mallards or black ducks. That was their "natural" migration. Then the season went to 60 days and there is no refuges in the area. Now you won't see a single duck on the river or geese even any more.

all species....Exactly, (see red highlight) they're not affected by the flooded corn, and continue a natural migration. They've always blown through here in September, and are still returning north, even now, today.

We will never know because it is never going to happen. What could be done is estimates of number birds feeding in the flooded corn. My guess is that they would just feed in dry fields. It's the dry field feeding ducks and geese that have always short stopped that are still short stopping. The ones that don't feed in dry fields and don't stay just ahead of the ice haven't changed.

I really think the extra month of you guys banging on the mallards has done more to change the fraction of the mallard population that short stops combined with much better habitat and therefore health and therefore reproductive success and therefore more adults. The mallards that fly to southern Louisiana are shot at from September 1st to January 31st. That's 153 days of hunter mortality. If they short stop at the cooling lake where I hunt, they are only hunted 117 days. That 24% less days per year that hunters might kill them. And there are a whole hell of a lot more hunters the further south you go. It would be really interesting to see hunter mortality rates on the sub-populations that short stop. I'll bet its even higher than that.

You compound even a 10% lower mortality rate over decades and it leads to huge shifts in the sub-populations of birds.

Remember, there have always been large numbers of mallards short stopping staying just ahead of the ice line. They seem almost certain to have much lower hunter mortalities which for big ducks is a more significant factor than little ducks. And now they are well fed all winter long. They are also probably the first ducks back to the breeding grounds and get the premium nesting sites.

We will never know because what you want will never happen. In Illinois, at least, they redrew the zone lines just for a couple flooded field operations screwing all the public river hunters, and southern Illinois is even worse.

Just be glad you still have better duck hunting than most of the country can ever dream of. I've shot 2 legal six duck limits in my entire life and both were back to back days on sea duck hunt 2 miles out in Lake Huron. Outside of traveling to duck hunt, most years, success is measure in days per duck and not ducks per day. I usually see way more ducks after the season is over than I do during the season

[aunt betty]

What's sweet for me is when the snow-line parks itself in Paxton for a few weeks. It happens but only every 10-15 years.
Seems like the last time was 1999 so we're a bit overdue.

There was a year before '99 where a blizzard from the west packed the over-passes solid on I-57. Can't recall which year it was but I killed a lot of ducks and geese that year. Must have been around 1985. Really not sure.

[DComeaux]

We stay open until the end of January here in LA, and where I hunt we lose our birds the first week or so in January.

Which species? Obviously the BWT are not heading to points south of you because of lack of food or weather. There have always been a large fraction of mallards and black ducks that move no further south than necessary. When I hunted on the Susquehanna River in the mid 80's. The river would freeze up to my town. South was open water. North was froze solid. Duck season was closed and we'd see lots of ducks and geese. Nearly all the ducks were mallards or black ducks. That was their "natural" migration. Then the season went to 60 days and there is no refuges in the area. Now you won't see a single duck on the river or geese even any more.

all species....Exactly, (see red highlight) they're not affected by the flooded corn, and continue a natural migration. They've always blown through here in September, and are still returning north, even now, today.

We will never know because it is never going to happen. What could be done is estimates of number birds feeding in the flooded corn. My guess is that they would just feed in dry fields. It's the dry field feeding ducks and geese that have always short stopped that are still short stopping. The ones that don't feed in dry fields and don't stay just ahead of the ice haven't changed.

I really think the extra month of you guys banging on the mallards has done more to change the fraction of the mallard population that short stops combined with much better habitat and therefore health and therefore reproductive success and therefore more adults. The mallards that fly to southern Louisiana are shot at from September 1st to January 31st. That's 153 days of hunter mortality. If they short stop at the cooling lake where I hunt, they are only hunted 117 days. That 24% less days per year that hunters might kill them. And there are a whole hell of a lot more hunters the further south you go. It would be really interesting to see hunter mortality rates on the sub-populations that short stop. I'll bet its even higher than that.

You compound even a 10% lower mortality rate over decades and it leads to huge shifts in the sub-populations of birds.

Remember, there have always been large numbers of mallards short stopping staying just ahead of the ice line. They seem almost certain to have much lower hunter mortalities which for big ducks is a more significant factor than little ducks. And now they are well fed all winter long. They are also probably the first ducks back to the breeding grounds and get the premium nesting sites.

We will never know because what you want will never happen. In Illinois, at least, they redrew the zone lines just for a couple flooded field operations screwing all the public river hunters, and southern Illinois is even worse.

Just be glad you still have better duck hunting than most of the country can ever dream of. I've shot 2 legal six duck limits in my entire life and both were back to back days on sea duck hunt 2 miles out in Lake Huron. Outside of traveling to duck hunt, most years, success is measure in days per duck and not ducks per day. I usually see way more ducks after the season is over than I do during the season

spinner, as long as I can remember there's been jealousy, and to some extent, a hatred of us down here at the end of the flyway by the northern hunters. We just happen to be where the birds migrate to escape the winter. I/we feel that this baiting issue was implemented to alter this pattern, and it seemed to work. Anything in nature can be manipulated by man to an extent, and it's not always a good thing.
There are things I've learned, and was told in private conversations from persons in this State, and some to our north that I will not divulge in an open forum. These things are confounding, and at the same time it let's me know I'm on the right track.
NOTE: Your perceived tone gave me a flash back, and awakened a feeling, or knowing in me that hadn't surfaced in many years.