Post season Stuff

[DComeaux]

I traveled north on I49 yesterday to a wedding at Toledo Bend (Zwolle La) and all the usual spring ponds were void of fowl. I did see one flock of snows and blues coming from the south, and just south of Alex I saw a spoonbill drake. For a little perspective, I've been driving this route since I49 was completed north of Lafayette to Alexandria in 1983, and finally through Alex to Shreveport in 1987/1989. This time of the year I traveled that stretch of hwy often chasing bass tournaments and would see those ponds full of fowl on every trip, these same ponds I looked at yesterday, they haven't changed. I don't travel this route as much as I did in past years but I do get reports weekly from those that do, and the late winter early spring numbers have been declining every year. Just an observation, and what the big issue might be is still up for discussion.


I'm flattered that someone took the time to think this up and include me in it. HAHAHHAHAHA!

https://www.captiongenerator.com/1300962/Flyway-Federation

[Ducaholic]

You are famous.

[DComeaux]

Not sure if any of you have read this article, so I'll just leave it here.

https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/is-hunting-waterfowl-in-flooded-corn-fair-chase/357662#

[Darren]

Not sure if any of you have read this article, so I'll just leave it here.

https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/is-hunting-waterfowl-in-flooded-corn-fair-chase/357662#

And that article achieves what for them? Just yet another piece with Josh G. saying corn is a major problem, and persons actually educated formally in waterfowl biology saying: no, not really. You have to look at the bigger picture.

Nonetheless, can't say I'd have been upset had that proposed bill gone through.

[SpinnerMan]

Lots of interesting stuff in that article. You can probably see what you want to see.

“As resource managers, we tend to discourage flooding corn and other crops as a way to attract waterfowl or provide habitat for them. We would much rather see landowners and clubs conduct moist-soil management, which provides better habitat overall than a flooded corn field. It may be hard to believe, but ducks use moist-soil habitat at far greater rates than flooded corn when both are available,” says Eichholz, adding, “Biologically, giving ducks corn is like giving kids candy, but they will choose higher-quality foods typically found in moist-soil habitat if it is available. They know what they need to eat in order to survive. Lots of studies have shown that, although ducks do prefer corn when the weather is real cold.”

So if they all go to moist soil instead of flooded corn, southern Louisiana is really screwed

“Snow coverage and temperatures influence mallard distribution more than anything. If they don’t have access to food and open water, they’ll fly south,” he says. “The amount of corn grown specifically for agricultural purposes throughout the U.S. is in the neighborhood of 82 million acres. A study determined that the amount of waste grain alone would support something like 100 million mallards. Not all of it is utilized by ducks, of course, but to suggest that flooded corn is disrupting migration patterns any more than all the other corn grown as a crop is just speculation.”

That's what I've been saying all along. There is so much corn around from waste grain, that as far as food, there it is practically unlimited. You throw in a warm water discharge that keeps a huge body of water open and 100% closed to human activity, the birds have no physical reason to migrate south unless the snow becomes too deep.

“What do you think happened on those places that were closed to hunting and human activity at 1 p.m.? Ducks started pouring in after 1 p.m. On places that were open all day, the ducks started pouring in right after sunset,” says Raedeke. “Hunting pressure and human disturbance dictate how much use flooded crops get more than the crops themselves.”

And I think one big answer is not a fixed schedule. I'd like Saturday and Sunday hours being all day. Monday being closed all day. Tuesday AM, Wednesday PM, Thursday AM, Friday PM. No set pattern for the ducks to respond to and plenty of rest time to not relentlessly pressure the birds and drive them from the area, but enough to keep them scattered and moving around with very little areas that are pure refuges. Maybe some areas, it is less and other areas 7 days. I know where I hunt, there are too much safe haven and the ducks very quickly go to these and we are done until new birds show that haven't figured it out yet.

[DComeaux]

Not sure if any of you have read this article, so I'll just leave it here.

https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/is-hunting-waterfowl-in-flooded-corn-fair-chase/357662#

And that article achieves what for them? Just yet another piece with Josh G. saying corn is a major problem, and persons actually educated formally in waterfowl biology saying: no, not really. You have to look at the bigger picture.

Nonetheless, can't say I'd have been upset had that proposed bill gone through.

For me, It's raising awareness and is a conversation starter. For the many average Joe's having to hunt around and compete with (no competition) these corn operations to our north is tough, and they have no voice, alone. I've noticed many now speaking out on many forums. The FF is that voice, though it's really gotten out of hand as of late, but I think the reins have been applied, at least I hope so.

I mean no disrespect in saying this, and I do hold those in the highest regard, but I liken waterfowl biology to meteorology only when it pertains to the migration. I know of the data collected over the years and the extrapolation of numbers to form a data base, but when an issue arises like we have now where do you turn when the data can't, without a doubt,explain it away? Field observations and hunting experiences over time can't be denied, and after years of doing this frustration mounts. It's scary that it took a season like we've just experienced to raise awareness. Myself and others don't agree with all that's being posted, but we are all glad Josh got this started. My skepticism on this issue didn't start yesterday, but I always gave the benefit of doubt. That is getting harder for me to do.

I think it was the 2016-2017 season, early December??? (I don't feel like looking it up) when we had that big front, freezing in Chenier, and the birds didn't show. Every year for many years before that I had anticipated just that weather scenario to expel all doubt, and when we didn't get "the front" I thought oh well maybe next year. That anticipation and hopefulness for me disappeared after that season.

[SpinnerMan]

For the many average Joe's having to hunt around and compete with (no competition) these corn operations to our north is tough

Just be glad they are not moist soil units.

It may be hard to believe, but ducks use moist-soil habitat at far greater rates than flooded corn when both are available,” says Eichholz

If there is a "problem," it seems like all the rehab and restoration of wetlands that has been occurring since probably the early 1970's and not the flooded corn. Wetlands restoration is widespread both large and small. Not far from my house, they did a wetlands restoration that had nothing to do with ducks, but what was an area that held no waterfowl is now one of the highest concentrations of waterfowl. And you don't see just mallards and Canada geese as you do on the normal retention pond time projects, but all types of waterfowl because it has a lot of shallow marshy areas that attract all types of waterfowl.

Another similar area is along the extension of one of our interstates. Paralleling the length of the interstate they put in a lot of marshes that consistently hold quite a few ducks where 15 years ago there was nothing holding ducks.

We've moved away from draining and destroying wetlands to building retention ponds to avoid flooding caused by increased runoff from development to actually expanding quality marsh land that has a high biologic value. There seems to be a very large increase in moist-soil habitat over the last several decades and if his statement is true, it could certainly play into the changing patterns. But how much were those pattern changes when the vast amounts of wetlands were drained and plowed under generations before that?

As I said, there is plenty in that so anyone can probably see what they want to see. However, I see very little that supports the idea that flooded corn is a significant contributor to mass behavior of 10's of millions of ducks and geese.

Code: Select all

Lots of studies have shown that, although ducks do prefer corn when the weather is real cold

And that is why I pray for it to be a cold SOB for the last month of ducks season

I just wish it were not a cold SOB now that it's March.

[DComeaux]

Lots of interesting stuff in that article. You can probably see what you want to see.

“As resource managers, we tend to discourage flooding corn and other crops as a way to attract waterfowl or provide habitat for them. We would much rather see landowners and clubs conduct moist-soil management, which provides better habitat overall than a flooded corn field. It may be hard to believe, but ducks use moist-soil habitat at far greater rates than flooded corn when both are available,” says Eichholz, adding, “Biologically, giving ducks corn is like giving kids candy, but they will choose higher-quality foods typically found in moist-soil habitat if it is available. They know what they need to eat in order to survive. Lots of studies have shown that, although ducks do prefer corn when the weather is real cold.”

So if they all go to moist soil instead of flooded corn, southern Louisiana is really screwed

I'd much prefer to see those installed in the flyway, but I'm doubtful that many would go through the expense in the name of conservation. That's why I think Du and delta use corn as an incentive for landowners. The intentions may be good, but no one looked at the side affects.

“Snow coverage and temperatures influence mallard distribution more than anything. If they don’t have access to food and open water, they’ll fly south,” he says. “The amount of corn grown specifically for agricultural purposes throughout the U.S. is in the neighborhood of 82 million acres. A study determined that the amount of waste grain alone would support something like 100 million mallards. Not all of it is utilized by ducks, of course, but to suggest that flooded corn is disrupting migration patterns any more than all the other corn grown as a crop is just speculation.”

That's what I've been saying all along. There is so much corn around from waste grain, that as far as food, there it is practically unlimited. You throw in a warm water discharge that keeps a huge body of water open and 100% closed to human activity, the birds have no physical reason to migrate south unless the snow becomes too deep.

I've been hammered with that exact come back line many, many times , though not as frequent as of late, and my question was, if those fields have that much food after harvest then why allow flooded corn in the migration corridor in the name of conservation? I never did receive an answer on that, only deflection.

“What do you think happened on those places that were closed to hunting and human activity at 1 p.m.? Ducks started pouring in after 1 p.m. On places that were open all day, the ducks started pouring in right after sunset,” says Raedeke. “Hunting pressure and human disturbance dictate how much use flooded crops get more than the crops themselves.”

And I think one big answer is not a fixed schedule. I'd like Saturday and Sunday hours being all day. Monday being closed all day. Tuesday AM, Wednesday PM, Thursday AM, Friday PM. No set pattern for the ducks to respond to and plenty of rest time to not relentlessly pressure the birds and drive them from the area, but enough to keep them scattered and moving around with very little areas that are pure refuges. Maybe some areas, it is less and other areas 7 days. I know where I hunt, there are too much safe haven and the ducks very quickly go to these and we are done until new birds show that haven't figured it out yet.

I hunt near (3 miles west) of an 86,000 acre refuge that does not allow hunting. A major portion of this refuge closes to all outside human activity on December 1st, and remains closed until March 1'st. It has a small potion planted (brown top I believe) near the road and this is flooded just prior to teal season. The remainder is natural moist soil that is well managed. I've always been thankful for this place as these fowl do need safe areas, especially with today's hunting pressure.

[SpinnerMan]

Lots of interesting stuff in that article. You can probably see what you want to see.

“As resource managers, we tend to discourage flooding corn and other crops as a way to attract waterfowl or provide habitat for them. We would much rather see landowners and clubs conduct moist-soil management, which provides better habitat overall than a flooded corn field. It may be hard to believe, but ducks use moist-soil habitat at far greater rates than flooded corn when both are available,” says Eichholz, adding, “Biologically, giving ducks corn is like giving kids candy, but they will choose higher-quality foods typically found in moist-soil habitat if it is available. They know what they need to eat in order to survive. Lots of studies have shown that, although ducks do prefer corn when the weather is real cold.”

So if they all go to moist soil instead of flooded corn, southern Louisiana is really screwed

I'd much prefer to see those installed in the flyway, but I'm doubtful that many would go through the expense in the name of conservation. That's why I think Du and delta use corn as an incentive for landowners. The intentions may be good, but no one looked at the side affects.

I think there is way more of that than you realize actually happening. I've seen a lot of moist soil added in my area and none of it by DU or DNR or anybody that is directly concerned about its benefits to ducks, but it still benefits the ducks. Remember the link to all the projects in Illinois. They were all effectively creating or improving moist-soil or other types of more natural habitats. I was also at a local chapter DU meeting years ago. The budget for the park district of the county we were in was greater than the entire budget for all of DU. So while I think what DU does is good, I think its impact is wildly overstated. I think they help identify problems and solutions, but orders of magnitude more work is done outside their influence. I really think it is happening all along the flyways and of them for reasons unrelated to waterfowl, but has to do with our far greater understanding of the value of these types of wetlands to water quality, flooding, as well as to wildlife of all types. Also, they are just more aesthetically pleasing.

if those fields have that much food after harvest then why allow flooded corn in the migration corridor in the name of conservation?

Eichholz acknowledges flooded corn is a divisive and contentious topic among hunters, and he calls the ambiguous regulations “silly.” However, he sees no reason the practice should be banned from a biologist’s perspective. Any additional habitat is better than no additional habitat, even if it is seasonal and relatively poor overall.

More is more in terms of habitat if I am interpreting his argument.

I agree with Eichholz that there is no reason to ban it, but I think it is done far more because it makes hunters happy than because it is the best use of resources for the ducks. The same reason that you want to ban it is the same reason others want it to be part of the management plan. If the local area were not planting and flooding corn, they would catch so much hell, so they just do it.

I hunt near (3 miles west) of an 86,000 acre refuge that does not allow hunting. A major portion of this refuge closes to all outside human activity on December 1st, and remains closed until March 1'st. It has a small potion planted (brown top I believe) near the road and this is flooded just prior to teal season. The remainder is natural moist soil that is well managed. I've always been thankful for this place as these fowl do need safe areas, especially with today's hunting pressure.

Maybe that is a far greater explanation to your poorer hunting success. The birds know where to go and simply go there.

“What do you think happened on those places that were closed to hunting and human activity at 1 p.m.? Ducks started pouring in after 1 p.m. On places that were open all day, the ducks started pouring in right after sunset,” says Raedeke. “Hunting pressure and human disturbance dictate how much use flooded crops get more than the crops themselves.”

A study conducted in Ontario found similar results. It examined duck use of flooded crop impoundments that were hunted and found the birds stopped using those areas almost entirely during daylight hours a few weeks into the hunting season. Nighttime use jumped dramatically.

The ducks go where the people are not as soon as they learn where the people are not.

Giving them a safe haven, gives them a safe haven. And they will use it.

We need to mix it up so hunting is better while the season is on. If that resulted in cutting the season length because we killed more birds per day on average Remember everywhere is a refuge outside of hunting season. The goal is to maximize the enjoyment of our limited resource. That involves increasing the sustainable harvest and maximizing the enjoyment of harvesting that resource. More uniform and predictable success is going to be part of that. To do that, we can't let them pile into refuges and sit there until it is dark.

Akin acknowledges some birds do leave the comfort of those impoundments and provide decent shooting at times for surrounding hunters, but that typically happens when the planted food is depleted later in the season. It can also occur when the ducks have been shot at a few times.

I want them to leave more often so there is more spillover to the surrounding areas. If they aren't being shot at, you will get a lot less spillover. You'd almost certainly kill more ducks if you 86,000 acre refuge allowed hunting as would obviously the people hunting on that area. Same total duck harvest, but in fewer days. I think that is what most people want relative to what we have today.

[DComeaux]

This is a very good read and it looks like we came full circle. It's a study on baiting during the 1933-1934 season. I don't have direct access to this document so I had to go through FB.

Natural Food
As an important part of the baiting study, it was deemed necessary
that a careful investigation be made of the natural food conditions to
ascertain whether there was an adequate supply. It was soon found that the
abundance or scarcity of birds in an area is not always a true index of the
availability of natural food. Baiting in one area may and often does readily
attract birds away from a good supply of natural food. Further, overshooting, or merely an instinct to migrate , may cause a good feeding area to be largely des erted.
From the field stud.i e s, it was c>pp ~r nt that many areas tha t showed
a good supply of waterfowl during the gunning season would not hold them if
it were not f.or artificial feeding. It should be remembered, however, that
there never wns Dnd never can be an even distribution of the se birds over
the country. It should ~lso be sta t ed that these gClIDe birds are often
held by bait in areas that naturally are not adopted for wintering waterfowl
and after the close of the gunning sea s on, when artificial f eeding usually
t erminn,t es, the s e a reas are de serted and the ducks then concentrate more in
the areas of natural food. If the birds do not move out in cold weather
suffering or starvation often results.
Because of the inroads of civilization, many good duck marshes have
been de stroyed by drainage , filling in, mo s quito control, e tc., and unquestionably some rather extensive ar eas would not now have any wa t erfowl
if it wer e not for baiting . In most of the se areas, however, the birds l eave
as soon as the gunning season closes because this "feeding" is then discontinued and from nl.l indications the birds usually ge t along as well after the

https://www.flywayfederationusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/1933-1935-Documents-and-Baiting-Prohibition-FDR-compressed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0rB7-6s-hmOFGNbTqpMIFNzEWYeEwMRMbUiCmM2kOSDIDvlsMoapR8aq0

[Rick]

You're really grasping at straws, my friend.

[DComeaux]

Stacking straws and making bales. I want to add that it seems to verify a lot of what I've been thinking and saying. Those asking for a study, well there it is. I doubt the results would be different today.

[SpinnerMan]

Baiting is very different. What they are talking about is dumping corn or other bait and then stopping it as soon as the season ends. The flooded corn or the waste grain in the fields are not cut off when the season ends. They remain available long after the season is over. This is like me putting bird seed on my window sill. There are always way more birds on my window when I'm in town than when I am out. That is obviously because they like looking at me and not because I dump bird seed when I am here.

As far as overshooting, large numbers of resident Canada geese changed the migratory patterns of the Canada geese. Obviously from altitude flying over while migrating, they can't tell how much or how little food is available below them. However, put out large numbers of live decoys and some will come down to take a look and some will stay. And I really think those that don't migrate further (given adequate food and roosting areas) will survive and be healthier and more productive than those that migrate further south. After all those birds that stop this far north, they suffer one month less of hunter mortality.

So instead of being hunted from September to the end of January if they migrate to the southern Louisiana. That is 20% less time they have to be harvested. Additionally, the much higher numbers of hunters down south, the net effect on hunter mortality is probably much greater than that. Over time, that has got to have an impact on the distribution of waterfowl with an overall trend that the populations that stay north will become a larger share.

Now of course there is a lot of mixing of birds and it's not the same birds migrating to the same areas year over year, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a significant correlation between for example mallards that I was seeing in January this winter being the same birds and their offspring that I see next year. And the same for the ones that you see. Even a small fractional effect like this compounded over decades will lead to large shifts in population distributions. Say the one is growing at a 0.5% and the other declining at 0.5%. After 30 years, if they started out equal, they growing area would be 16% higher and the shrinking 14% lower. The total population would be up just 2%, but the growing area would now have 35% more ducks than the lower. And that's imperceptibly small average annual change. Even 1% or 2%, wouldn't be noticed year over year, but in short order would lead to quite noticeable shifts. Of course, this trend would be all happening on top of the huge noise caused by annual variations caused by weather. There is a reason people lose so much at gambling. Everybody thinks they can see patterns that are not there in the chaos. Give your dog random treats and he is convinced if he just works harder, he will get rewarded more even as you reduce the frequency of treats as long as you don't cut him off.

So please don't push to end flooded corn, but push to change northern states to have a late January season We'll help to keep those birds moving on down the flyway

[Rick]

Stacking straws and making bales. I want to add that it seems to verify a lot of what I've been thinking and saying. Those asking for a study, well there it is. I doubt the results would be different today.

Whatever belief gets you through the night, Dave. But it's a straw house. You'd do more real good and less harm in terms of alienating our state's interests with those with the power to facilitate change by removing yourself from the gun pressure pool.

[DComeaux]

Baiting is very different. What they are talking about is dumping corn or other bait and then stopping it as soon as the season ends.They remain available long after the season is over. This is like me putting bird seed on my window sill. There are always way more birds on my window when I'm in town than when I am out. That is obviously because they like looking at me and not because I dump bird seed when I am here.


So please don't push to end flooded corn, but push to change northern states to have a late January season We'll help to keep those birds moving on down the flyway

Spinner, I see flooded standing corn as baiting, enticing fowl for the purpose of harvest.

Do you think the want for later seasons is due to being able to now hold birds longer?

[Rick]

I see flooded standing corn as baiting...

So that makes it OK to quote a study that didn't out of context?

[SpinnerMan]

Baiting is very different. What they are talking about is dumping corn or other bait and then stopping it as soon as the season ends.They remain available long after the season is over. This is like me putting bird seed on my window sill. There are always way more birds on my window when I'm in town than when I am out. That is obviously because they like looking at me and not because I dump bird seed when I am here.


So please don't push to end flooded corn, but push to change northern states to have a late January season We'll help to keep those birds moving on down the flyway

Spinner, I see flooded standing corn as baiting, enticing fowl for the purpose of harvest.

Do you think the want for later seasons is due to being able to now hold birds longer?

The study that you referred to was about dumping corn during season and not leaving an unpicked field which is available until the birds head back north. So that's not really on topic. That has been illegal for a very long time.

But yes creating a moist-soil unit to attract birds for the purpose of harvest is baiting in the broadest sense. So is flooding a picked field with sheet water to attract waterfowl. Any manipulation of the environment to attract waterfowl in the broadest sense is baiting. The question is how much baiting is allowed. It's an arbitrary line that has been in place for a long time so I see no reason to change the status quo.

As far as late season, Yes because we have a large warm water cooling lake surrounded by millions of acres of harvested (not flooded) grain fields. The mallards and Canadas don't migrate until they have to and that requires a deep freeze and snow to take away their roosts and food to the north. We've had fairly warm winters lately which has meant fairly poor late season hunting. We had periods of good hunting, but subsequent warm up and the birds go back north. This yo-yo migration is and has been the norm for awhile. The problem is that the bottom of the yo-yo hasn't been consistently pushing this far south very often. Ideally, we are at the center of it and the birds push through to the south and we get new birds on the way down. Then it warms and we get a push of new birds on the way back. And this repeats so we are consistently getting new birds and they don't get stale. It has nothing to do with flooded corn or anything that you oppose. It is just how the birds behave and they just often don't show up in force until after our season is over.

Why do they behave like this? I think it is simple Darwinian behavior. I can't kill them and neither can you. That gives them an evolutionary advantage over the early birds. The early bird might get the worm, but the early ducks get killed.

And as mentioned, they have an unlimited supply of food. I hope this puts to rest your notion that there is not that much waste grain because your original link referenced a study on the topic.

A study determined that the amount of waste grain alone would support something like 100 million mallards.

That matches up with my math and my personal experience hunting harvested fields.

[DComeaux]

I see flooded standing corn as baiting...

So that makes it OK to quote a study that didn't out of context?

I posted the study because it touches on a lot of the subject matter covered in debates I've had over the last year. You can substitute the placed corn with the standing corn in this instance. I know it's not exactly the same but it does have the same effect on fowl when it's available. The laws today are lax (since the 98 treaty alteration) with regards to ingress and egress into these flooded corn fields as well as other related activities which allows for the "incidental" scattering of grain. I also know there are strips harvested through these fields to allow for open water, which is illegal today but is happening. (Refer to my all or nothing comments on this subject)

I have no doubt that if this same study were conducted today, without bias, we would see the same results. Some out there have asked to see a study on this subject and there it is. We have come full circle.... History repeats itself.

[Ducaholic]

In our zest to recreate what was once naturally occurring wetlands that were dry in some years and wet in others we have begun to alter an entire migration through man's good works. Ducks have shown over time that they clearly can over come and will adapt to 120 years of man made developments and urbanization and still survive and thrive when the breeding grounds are at their best. The last 20 years of waterfowl hunting has truly become the Modern Era of the Market Hunter. Ducks have taken notice to the new consistently wet and ever increasing specialized habitat. They have taken notice of the pressure applied by 20+ years of liberal regs and they have succumb to the lure of the spinning wing decoy and still manage to maintain their numbers somehow. I'm not at all surprised that the migration and local distribution of waterfowl has in fact been impacted at least for some of us. After all it's just ducks being ducks.

[DComeaux]

https://katc.com/news/covering-louisiana/2019/03/11/video-male-whooping-crane-captured/?fbclid=IwAR0WkykdJGZZk9Zpf8aKyxbdeTxBaOI7v3X1OdA9bRJFSPVMRK9tRVS1O9w

[Duck Engr]

Wow what a cool video!! I wonder who the first guy was that said, “ya know what we could try? We could dress up in white and make the cranes think we’re a crane too.”

[Rick]

Edited out the part where they wrung its neck and made gumbo. Boudreaux and Thibideaux will be breaking out their Klan whites...

[DComeaux]

Wow what a cool video!! I wonder who the first guy was that said, “ya know what we could try? We could dress up in white and make the cranes think we’re a crane too.”

I'm fairly certain that they use those suits combined with the crane head puppet on one hand when the birds are young and in pens. It's to somewhat limit the human interaction and imprinting.

[Rick]

Yep, they do.

[Duck Engr]

Very interesting.

[DComeaux]

Please read the entire article. I think it'll help explain some things a lot us us knew was happening. You'll have to access it with FB.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=158678121795441&set=oa.2162627197156600&type=3&theater&ifg=1

[Rick]

And now the Wisconsin guys are wondering why "their" birds aren't making it down like they used to...

[DComeaux]

The comments starting at 29 minute mark is interesting.


https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-fcd64-ab64a5?fbclid=IwAR0ROks4em2hJvjhUGTdKSHyg-Pfako8xM2OzPri7-RhEzc58x1TOk2uYvg

[Rick]

When you're talking about nocturnal ducks, you're talking about pressure.

[Darren]

Dave, hadn't had a chance to read the FB message/link story but plan to when I can.