Duck Stuff

[DComeaux]

[Johnc]

Ronnie doucet does a good job in these and Jeff foiles added something I have now seen for several years in part 2 about the nocturnal adaptation

[DComeaux]

[Ducaholic]

Without stating the obvious or muttering the dreaded word shortstopping the panel lead by the talking head Heitmeyer has essentially admitted that waterfowl needs are in fact being met north of La.

Corn however is not the only culprit. Anyone with a grain of sense knew that but it can’t be dismissed as not being part of the formula.

[Rick]

Without stating the obvious or muttering the dreaded word shortstopping the panel lead by the talking head Heitmeyer has essentially admitted that waterfowl needs are in fact being met north of La.

C'mon, Capt. Obvious: they'd have to move on if their needs weren't met - but that doesn't mean outlawing flooded corn would be enough to turn that trick to any meaningful extent, much less that this would be where they shifted to...

[Ducaholic]

Without stating the obvious or muttering the dreaded word shortstopping the panel lead by the talking head Heitmeyer has essentially admitted that waterfowl needs are in fact being met north of La.

C'mon, Capt. Obvious: they'd have to move on if their needs weren't met - but that doesn't mean outlawing flooded corn would be enough to turn that trick to any meaningful extent, much less that this would be where they shifted to...

Lol...You have heard my spill many times. And you have also heard folks argue that managed habitat expansion over the course of AHM is not part of the reason for our numbers decline and that includes our very own Waterfowl Study Leader. All I’m saying is this is the first time that I have heard some form of admission that shortstopping is happening from a person of Heitmeyer’s stature.

I also found it refreshing to see the host challenge Heitmeyer’s arrogance in that he said you just don’t know the impact of flooded unharvested crops because you haven’t bothered to validate how much of it is on the landscape.

I enjoyed this episode.

Sincerely;
Captain Obvious

[DComeaux]

Without stating the obvious or muttering the dreaded word shortstopping the panel lead by the talking head Heitmeyer has essentially admitted that waterfowl needs are in fact being met north of La.

C'mon, Capt. Obvious: they'd have to move on if their needs weren't met - but that doesn't mean outlawing flooded corn would be enough to turn that trick to any meaningful extent, much less that this would be where they shifted to...

We'll never know....... It looks like at one point he was looking at Larry when talking about turning the finger around to point to ourselves for not legally baiting ducks on a grand scale.

[jarbo03]

Can only speak from a central flyway perspective, but might translate some. While I hear of those to the south wondering where the ducks are at, many of us to the north are asking the same question. What i haven't seen, at least around here, is increased harvest rates.

Been curious if extreme pressure is going to be mentioned. Birds show up here on opening day and are wise from being hammered on for 2 months straight. Wild critters adapt and find a way to survive. If a place is found where they are safe, they are hesitant to leave.

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[SpinnerMan]

I got this far in listening to them. Very interesting.

However, something that these guys are missing and that is well known up here. It is a major factor as to why the Canada geese don't go to southern Illinois as they used to.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/09/no-till-farming-is-on-the-rise-thats-actually-a-big-deal/

Here's a fascinating trend in U.S. agriculture that's been going on for the past few decades. It's the dramatic rise ... of no-till farming:

Various federal government subsidies for soil conservation also gave farmers incentives to switch practices — particularly after the 1985 farm bill. So did higher oil prices.

https://modernfarmer.com/2013/08/7-facts-till-farming/

No-till farming is a practice that started to gain traction in the late ’70s, and has slowly picked up steam since then. Roger Claassen, agricultural economist with the USDA, says only 5 percent of U.S farmers were no-till in 1988. In 2008, that figure had jumped to 25 percent (and is likely higher now).

The combination of the explotion of resident geese and no till farm is what caused a huge shift in the Canada geese population.

No till farming took off at the same time that the change in laws took off. So any trend would look exactly the same because they happened at the same time.

Why are the ducks only showing late in northeast Illinois? It ain't flooded corn in Missouri that's for sure. It's an unlimited supply of waste grain to our north because of no till farming.

One other thing in his trends. He includes periods of very low duck populations in the 50's. That of course will drag the trend lines down very much. He did this for sure with the Gadwall. If you start a decade later, the trend lines will look a whole lot flatter.

These are the two most common challenges of this type of analysis.

1. Correlation does not mean causation. Correlation is necessary, but definitely not sufficient.
2. When you are free to pick the bounds of the period, you will always assume the boundary that gives you the expected result - if it tells me what I already believe it must be right.

I think you do the correlation with no till farming and you will see at least as strong of a correlation as with the change in the law. There were 62 million acres of no till farming in the U.S. in 2004 and it is much higher today.

How many acres of flooded corn, etc. are there? Obviously, the cause can be contributions from both and other things.

I'm sure warm water discharges have contributed.

That's why I hunt near a cooling lake in dry mostly no-till snow-covered fields in January and typically see piles of ducks and geese as long as it has been cold and snowy enough to the north to send them down.

[DComeaux]

#9

[Rick]

...you have also heard folks argue that managed habitat expansion over the course of AHM is not part of the reason...

Nope, I must have missed that. Haven't noticed anyone arguing that it hasn't played some sort of role, just the significance of that role.

[Rick]

We'll never know....... It looks like at one point he was looking at Larry when talking about turning the finger around to point to ourselves for not legally baiting ducks on a grand scale.

Take a drive through rice country this winter and you'll see that we do, in fact, have flooded unharvested grain on a grand scale. And that they'd have to shut down ag land hunting in SWLA, if it was deemed baited. Counted four different farmers "legally baiting" in the four miles between Lake Arthur and Klondike last year, and as more crawfish farmers learn the value of "green" (live) rice for oxygenation and earlier crawfish harvest, the practice will surely increase.

[DComeaux]

We'll never know....... It looks like at one point he was looking at Larry when talking about turning the finger around to point to ourselves for not legally baiting ducks on a grand scale.

Take a drive through rice country this winter and you'll see that we do, in fact, have flooded unharvested grain on a grand scale. And that they'd have to shut down ag land hunting in SWLA, if it was deemed baited. Counted four different farmers "legally baiting" in the four miles between Lake Arthur and Klondike last year, and as more crawfish farmers learn the value of "green" (live) rice for oxygenation and earlier crawfish harvest, the practice will surely increase.

Won't help those here if they don't make it to us, and it seems to me a futile endeavor at this moment in time. How many of Louisiana's WMA's or refuges are planted in corn or rice for duck food? Easy pick-ins to the north is beyond stiff competition for our "moist soil", do nothing units. (I'm not bashing our WMA's or refuges, just pointing out the management differences with states to our north, and I'd not like to see ours planted)

I have to say that the manager at Rockefeller does a darn good job at water management on those units, keeping it at optimum levels throughout the winter, but I have yet to see standing corn in that place. If there were corn, I'd imagine I'd see black skies over it in the winter, same as I saw when they presumably baited the mottled's for banding purposes.

[BGkirk]

I think Rockefeller might be the only one that gets any management effort. From what I’ve seen the rest doesn’t get touched or even thought about unless there is something im missing


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[BGkirk]

I think Rockefeller might be the only one that gets any management effort. From what I’ve seen the rest doesn’t get touched or even thought about unless there is something im missing


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[DComeaux]

I think Rockefeller might be the only one that gets any management effort. From what I’ve seen the rest doesn’t get touched or even thought about unless there is something im missing


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From what I've read on the interweb over time your statement follows that sentiment. I see what is done at Rockefeller, and know the guy that does it. He's around the camp quite often. I think he may have a little more money to play with than the LDWF in general. I'm assuming funding for the LDWF is not considered priority for this state, "The Sportsman's paradise".

I'm always saddened when I pass the faded sign north of town on hwy 91 that proclaims "Gueydan The Duck Capital of the World".

[jarbo03]

I got this far in listening to them. Very interesting.

However, something that these guys are missing and that is well known up here. It is a major factor as to why the Canada geese don't go to southern Illinois as they used to.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/09/no-till-farming-is-on-the-rise-thats-actually-a-big-deal/

Here's a fascinating trend in U.S. agriculture that's been going on for the past few decades. It's the dramatic rise ... of no-till farming:

Various federal government subsidies for soil conservation also gave farmers incentives to switch practices — particularly after the 1985 farm bill. So did higher oil prices.

https://modernfarmer.com/2013/08/7-facts-till-farming/

No-till farming is a practice that started to gain traction in the late ’70s, and has slowly picked up steam since then. Roger Claassen, agricultural economist with the USDA, says only 5 percent of U.S farmers were no-till in 1988. In 2008, that figure had jumped to 25 percent (and is likely higher now).

The combination of the explotion of resident geese and no till farm is what caused a huge shift in the Canada geese population.

No till farming took off at the same time that the change in laws took off. So any trend would look exactly the same because they happened at the same time.

Why are the ducks only showing late in northeast Illinois? It ain't flooded corn in Missouri that's for sure. It's an unlimited supply of waste grain to our north because of no till farming.

One other thing in his trends. He includes periods of very low duck populations in the 50's. That of course will drag the trend lines down very much. He did this for sure with the Gadwall. If you start a decade later, the trend lines will look a whole lot flatter.

These are the two most common challenges of this type of analysis.

1. Correlation does not mean causation. Correlation is necessary, but definitely not sufficient.
2. When you are free to pick the bounds of the period, you will always assume the boundary that gives you the expected result - if it tells me what I already believe it must be right.

I think you do the correlation with no till farming and you will see at least as strong of a correlation as with the change in the law. There were 62 million acres of no till farming in the U.S. in 2004 and it is much higher today.

How many acres of flooded corn, etc. are there? Obviously, the cause can be contributions from both and other things.

I'm sure warm water discharges have contributed.

That's why I hunt near a cooling lake in dry mostly no-till snow-covered fields in January and typically see piles of ducks and geese as long as it has been cold and snowy enough to the north to send them down.

I know in my area no till farming has had Zero Effect on birds continuing south. As a fact, here it has had quite the opposite effect.
With no-till, you are either spraying after harvest, or planting a cover crop. Either way it leaves the waist grain unusable for birds. On top of that, Modern Machinery does not leave enough waste grain behind to effect millions and millions of migrating birds.

From a dime these practices started, mallards that's load extremely Emily Fields in my area. The geese are here in the same numbers, but they have adapted to eating more grass then grain.

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[SpinnerMan]

I know in my area no till farming has had Zero Effect on birds continuing south. As a fact, here it has had quite the opposite effect.
With no-till, you are either spraying after harvest, or planting a cover crop. Either way it leaves the waist grain unusable for birds. On top of that, Modern Machinery does not leave enough waste grain behind to effect millions and millions of migrating birds.

So what are all the ducks and geese in January and February eating in the frozen corn fields up here? They aren't eating snow.

I have never seen a single field planted with a cover crop up here. The growing season is not long enough up north. It's just not done. They might chisel plow the field, but that's about it. The pick it and don't touch it until spring.

And I guess they haven't started using the modern machinery up here either because I can see the corn when setting up the decoys.

Average corn yields are around 160 bushel/acre. A bushel of shelled corn ways about 68 lbs. That's 10,880 lbs of corn per acre. Even if they modern machinery gets 99%. That means there are almost 110 lbs of corn per acre. The average field, will literally have tons of corn in it. 500 acres to 100 lbs/acre is 25 tons of waste grain in a typical field if they harvest 99% of the corn. Illinois has about 10 million acres of corn and another 10 million in soybeans. That can feed a hell of a lot of ducks. And I seriously doubt they are harvesting 99%. But even at 99.9% would still leave 2.5 tons of waste grain in a typical field.

And because it is cold and dry, the grain doesn't rot like it does further south. There are whole ears of corn laying around when you set out decoys at the end of January. Flying 20 miles gives the ducks and geese access to almost a million acres.

But, serious question, what are the ducks and geese doing out in the fields in January and February when it is frozen and snow covered? Obviously, there is plenty of waste grain there for them to eat or they would not be there. There is nothing else in these fields at that time of year and yet there they are, assuming the weather has been cold enough to push them down from the north where they obviously weren't starving. If what you believed were true, these birds would starve, but they are not. And this is the case across larger parts of Canada, the Dakotas, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, ...

[jarbo03]

I know in my area no till farming has had Zero Effect on birds continuing south. As a fact, here it has had quite the opposite effect.
With no-till, you are either spraying after harvest, or planting a cover crop. Either way it leaves the waist grain unusable for birds. On top of that, Modern Machinery does not leave enough waste grain behind to effect millions and millions of migrating birds.

So what are all the ducks and geese in January and February eating in the frozen corn fields up here? They aren't eating snow.

I have never seen a single field planted with a cover crop up here. The growing season is not long enough up north. It's just not done. They might chisel plow the field, but that's about it. The pick it and don't touch it until spring.

And I guess they haven't started using the modern machinery up here either because I can see the corn when setting up the decoys.

Average corn yields are around 160 bushel/acre. A bushel of shelled corn ways about 68 lbs. That's 10,880 lbs of corn per acre. Even if they modern machinery gets 99%. That means there are almost 110 lbs of corn per acre. The average field, will literally have tons of corn in it. 500 acres to 100 lbs/acre is 25 tons of waste grain in a typical field if they harvest 99% of the corn. Illinois has about 10 million acres of corn and another 10 million in soybeans. That can feed a hell of a lot of ducks. And I seriously doubt they are harvesting 99%. But even at 99.9% would still leave 2.5 tons of waste grain in a typical field.

And because it is cold and dry, the grain doesn't rot like it does further south. There are whole ears of corn laying around when you set out decoys at the end of January. Flying 20 miles gives the ducks and geese access to almost a million acres.

But, serious question, what are the ducks and geese doing out in the fields in January and February when it is frozen and snow covered? Obviously, there is plenty of waste grain there for them to eat or they would not be there. There is nothing else in these fields at that time of year and yet there they are, assuming the weather has been cold enough to push them down from the north where they obviously weren't starving. If what you believed were true, these birds would starve, but they are not. And this is the case across larger parts of Canada, the Dakotas, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, ...

You act like there was no corn left before no till farming. From living where this happens, i can guarantee there is way less waste grain per acre now then there was 20 years ago. There are enough fields that they can keep popping back and forth and find enough food, the no-till practice did not change the amount of available

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[jarbo03]

I feel that it has had an impact on ground-nesting birds, and chicks that rely on insects and seeds for survival.

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[SpinnerMan]

I know in my area no till farming has had Zero Effect on birds continuing south. As a fact, here it has had quite the opposite effect.
With no-till, you are either spraying after harvest, or planting a cover crop. Either way it leaves the waist grain unusable for birds. On top of that, Modern Machinery does not leave enough waste grain behind to effect millions and millions of migrating birds.

So what are all the ducks and geese in January and February eating in the frozen corn fields up here? They aren't eating snow.

I have never seen a single field planted with a cover crop up here. The growing season is not long enough up north. It's just not done. They might chisel plow the field, but that's about it. The pick it and don't touch it until spring.

And I guess they haven't started using the modern machinery up here either because I can see the corn when setting up the decoys.

Average corn yields are around 160 bushel/acre. A bushel of shelled corn ways about 68 lbs. That's 10,880 lbs of corn per acre. Even if they modern machinery gets 99%. That means there are almost 110 lbs of corn per acre. The average field, will literally have tons of corn in it. 500 acres to 100 lbs/acre is 25 tons of waste grain in a typical field if they harvest 99% of the corn. Illinois has about 10 million acres of corn and another 10 million in soybeans. That can feed a hell of a lot of ducks. And I seriously doubt they are harvesting 99%. But even at 99.9% would still leave 2.5 tons of waste grain in a typical field.

And because it is cold and dry, the grain doesn't rot like it does further south. There are whole ears of corn laying around when you set out decoys at the end of January. Flying 20 miles gives the ducks and geese access to almost a million acres.

But, serious question, what are the ducks and geese doing out in the fields in January and February when it is frozen and snow covered? Obviously, there is plenty of waste grain there for them to eat or they would not be there. There is nothing else in these fields at that time of year and yet there they are, assuming the weather has been cold enough to push them down from the north where they obviously weren't starving. If what you believed were true, these birds would starve, but they are not. And this is the case across larger parts of Canada, the Dakotas, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, ...

You act like there was no corn left before no till farming. From living where this happens, i can guarantee there is way less waste grain per acre now then there was 20 years ago. There are enough fields that they can keep popping back and forth and find enough food, the no-till practice did not change the amount of available

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They used to plow it under in the fall making it in accessible. So there is vastly more available than when they deep plowed the fields.

Combined with an increase in warm water discharges. They have all the food and shelter they need. Why migrate?

And those that do get shot up for another month. Darwan would say that the odds are in favor of the ducks that migrate the least.

[DComeaux]

Park ducks! I knew it!

https://www.esf.edu/communications/view2.asp?newsID=8567&fbclid=IwAR2xGdkQQDBIbAc-CrW2C0yY_lW8aF6LDuSlVNbSTAn3YkaJ600js3Q8abU

From the 1920s to the 1960s, conservationists bred and released mallards to supplement the wild population. But those birds were of European descent, and Schummer refers to them as domestic ducks. At least 250,000 such birds continue to be released annually along the U.S. Atlantic Coast.

The influx of domestic genes has resulted in a loss of genetic diversity that might hamper the birds' ability to adapt to change. The research team is collecting DNA from mallards throughout the Atlantic Flyway to determine the relative contributions of wild and domestic mallards to the breeding population and to duckling production.

[SpinnerMan]

Park ducks! I knew it!

https://www.esf.edu/communications/view2.asp?newsID=8567&fbclid=IwAR2xGdkQQDBIbAc-CrW2C0yY_lW8aF6LDuSlVNbSTAn3YkaJ600js3Q8abU

From the 1920s to the 1960s, conservationists bred and released mallards to supplement the wild population. But those birds were of European descent, and Schummer refers to them as domestic ducks. At least 250,000 such birds continue to be released annually along the U.S. Atlantic Coast.

The influx of domestic genes has resulted in a loss of genetic diversity that might hamper the birds' ability to adapt to change. The research team is collecting DNA from mallards throughout the Atlantic Flyway to determine the relative contributions of wild and domestic mallards to the breeding population and to duckling production.

Speaking of change. Black ducks used to dominate the eastern flyway and not mallards. I read about this. I can't remember when it changed, but they used to harvest a lot more black ducks than mallards. Then the mallards invaded the eastern flyway. I would assume because of changes in land use. I don't think they know the mechanism for the growth of the mallards in the eastern flyway nor it seems the decline.

Where I grew up, I have no doubt that it was the combination of the 60 day season and the return of the resident goose population. The growth in geese created a big increase in interest in waterfowl hunting. There are very little refuge in the are and we would watch lots of ducks late season after everything froze up and the river was the only open water, but the short duck season, there was nothing we could do about it. Now with the 60 day season including a split and no Sunday hunting. 6 day hunting week is 10 weeks of hunting versus 8.6 weeks for a 7 day hunting week. And I would bet that the vast majority of mallard we were seeing then were local ducks that got pushed off the swamps and ponds and to the river more so than migratory birds. God, I wish back then I knew how to duck and goose hunt. We would have killed the hell out of them. Me and my buddies had nobody to teach us and there was no youtube or any of that to help either. And I'm sure once they did figure it out, they did kill the hell out of them which is why now when I go back home in the winter I rarely see a single duck or even very many geese. I don't know how much of the flyway is the same, but at least around where I grew up on the Susquehanna that seems pretty obvious what happened to what was once a pretty decent population of mallards. Even the park doesn't hold any mallards any more.

[Rick]

Been quite a few years, but I can recall Robertson lobbying for Louisiana mallard releases.

[jarbo03]

I know in my area no till farming has had Zero Effect on birds continuing south. As a fact, here it has had quite the opposite effect.
With no-till, you are either spraying after harvest, or planting a cover crop. Either way it leaves the waist grain unusable for birds. On top of that, Modern Machinery does not leave enough waste grain behind to effect millions and millions of migrating birds.

So what are all the ducks and geese in January and February eating in the frozen corn fields up here? They aren't eating snow.

I have never seen a single field planted with a cover crop up here. The growing season is not long enough up north. It's just not done. They might chisel plow the field, but that's about it. The pick it and don't touch it until spring.

And I guess they haven't started using the modern machinery up here either because I can see the corn when setting up the decoys.

Average corn yields are around 160 bushel/acre. A bushel of shelled corn ways about 68 lbs. That's 10,880 lbs of corn per acre. Even if they modern machinery gets 99%. That means there are almost 110 lbs of corn per acre. The average field, will literally have tons of corn in it. 500 acres to 100 lbs/acre is 25 tons of waste grain in a typical field if they harvest 99% of the corn. Illinois has about 10 million acres of corn and another 10 million in soybeans. That can feed a hell of a lot of ducks. And I seriously doubt they are harvesting 99%. But even at 99.9% would still leave 2.5 tons of waste grain in a typical field.

And because it is cold and dry, the grain doesn't rot like it does further south. There are whole ears of corn laying around when you set out decoys at the end of January. Flying 20 miles gives the ducks and geese access to almost a million acres.

But, serious question, what are the ducks and geese doing out in the fields in January and February when it is frozen and snow covered? Obviously, there is plenty of waste grain there for them to eat or they would not be there. There is nothing else in these fields at that time of year and yet there they are, assuming the weather has been cold enough to push them down from the north where they obviously weren't starving. If what you believed were true, these birds would starve, but they are not. And this is the case across larger parts of Canada, the Dakotas, Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, ...

You act like there was no corn left before no till farming. From living where this happens, i can guarantee there is way less waste grain per acre now then there was 20 years ago. There are enough fields that they can keep popping back and forth and find enough food, the no-till practice did not change the amount of available

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They used to plow it under in the fall making it in accessible. So there is vastly more available than when they deep plowed the fields.

Combined with an increase in warm water discharges. They have all the food and shelter they need. Why migrate?

And those that do get shot up for another month. Darwan would say that the odds are in favor of the ducks that migrate the least.

I know around here, there was plenty of grain available all winter long, way before no till. In my younger days, the river woukd be the only open water anywhere, it would load up with mallards and geese, they woukd use the surrounding corn and bean fields til they headed back north. The first downfall of hunting these areas, was when the farmer traded up to a brand new New Holland combine. Birds quit spending time in these fields. Id they were in a field on Tuesday, they would stay there til Saturday, now it's hard to see them in the same field 2 days in a row.

The other things you stated are factors, with the extreme pressure from Canada til they get here, birds have adapted a lot.

Scouted several of my spots last year, birds using cattle ranch ponds. Even after they were frozen solid, birds woukd still go days without flying to feed. They would walk off the ice and eat pasture grass for days on end, all while being surrounded by endless grain fields.

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[SpinnerMan]

I know around here, there was plenty of grain available all winter long, way before no till. In my younger days, the river woukd be the only open water anywhere, it would load up with mallards and geese, they woukd use the surrounding corn and bean fields til they headed back north. The first downfall of hunting these areas, was when the farmer traded up to a brand new New Holland combine. Birds quit spending time in these fields. Id they were in a field on Tuesday, they would stay there til Saturday, now it's hard to see them in the same field 2 days in a row.

I guess they haven't gotten the New Holland combines around here because the birds stay all winter long if we don't get too deep of snow. That's why I can dry field hunt the Canadas all the way to the end of January and why I wish our duck season was split and it ran until the end of January. They clearly are not starving. They just yo-yo with the weather. Ideal conditions are when they get pushed through here and further south then they come back with a warm spell and further north then get pushed back with the next weather. That way we don't get stale birds, but have a steady influx of new birds either from the north or south.

BTW, where is here? I don't recall where here and there is.

The other things you stated are factors, with the extreme pressure from Canada til they get here, birds have adapted a lot.

Adaptation doesn't take place over night. It is steady change over decades.

Many species have clearly adapted to living further north. I think it is a number of factors.

Even after they were frozen solid, birds woukd still go days without flying to feed. They would walk off the ice and eat pasture grass for days on end, all while being surrounded by endless grain fields.

You sure they weren't feeding at night. A lot of night feeding occurs, especially with snow on the ground and a little bit of moon. It is another one of those adaptations that has occurred. But if it's not too cold, they can live off of grass. They definitely don't have to feed every day either. Cold clear calm days, the geese down here usually don't fly. You can have them stacked up in the area but will see very few in the air.

[jarbo03]

Northeast Kansas.

They are not leaving at night, this was with temps never getting out of the teens for weeks. This is only for birds in my area, a friend who lives an hourvaway hunts completely different birds than here.



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[DComeaux]

It's a bit nippley out today.

[jarbo03]

It's a bit nippley out today.

Talked to Swamp yesterday, he was enjoying the cool front. He needs something to get used to, he's headed to Montana with me in 2 weeks.

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[Rick]

Not that nippy.