Preseason

Re: Preseason

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:23 am

Rick wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:I believe the problem is too many safe havens.


What happened here was plainly the opposite: too many unsafe places.

Didn't you talk about all the ducks using the big operation next door?

But in certain areas that can be the problem. Where I grew up, I am sure that's why I don't see ducks or geese anymore. However, I think there's been a huge growth in safe space for the ducks over the past couple decades between big private space and rehabbed and improvement by federal and state. Then the years of pressure to incentivize them to use them or go nocturnal. It's the combination of pressure here and safe space over there. 50 or even 100 miles away is not that far for a duck. So the refuge doesn't need to be in the same county.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Ricky Spanish » Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:45 am

To do it right takes money.
Study The Crane Farm hunt club near Cash, Arkansas.
$100k to join . Probably more now.

That club is vast. They own water holding "tanks" I mean ponds. No hunting. Stacked with birds.
Want to see?
Drive down CRANE FARM ROAD. Do not get out of your truck. It's watched heavily.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Darren » Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:34 am

Duck Engr wrote:
DComeaux wrote:
Duck Engr wrote:And that’s a small group. Saw photographic proof of multiple 28 (yes, twenty-eight) man limits of specks this season by guide services.


I hate reading that.
It’s even worse when you’re within earshot of it.



Lots of Louisiana hunters from even our southernmost reaches are trekking to AR to get in on that with their guide buddies, etc. before our season opens (or before we have, what they deem, huntable numbers of birds).
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Re: Preseason

Postby Ducaholic » Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:47 am

Rick wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:I believe the problem is too many safe havens.


What happened here was plainly the opposite: too many unsafe places.



Here for you but not here for me. Safe Havens are a huge issue here.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Darren » Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:18 pm

Ducaholic wrote:
Rick wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:I believe the problem is too many safe havens.


What happened here was plainly the opposite: too many unsafe places.



Here for you but not here for me. Safe Havens are a huge issue here.


Too much safe haven for you?

Only safe stuff on my end, SE La coastal marshes, is on wide open bays. Has me wondering if I might try some shoreline hunts like those I did many years back when just getting started.....surprisingly productive at times with puddlers in addition to the dogs and buffles.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Rick » Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:04 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:Didn't you talk about all the ducks using the big operation next door?


Absolutely, and I'm thankful as can be for places the birds can still feel comfortable down here. Without them we'd be screwed even worse. Wish to heck there were a lot more of them.
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Re: Preseason

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:28 pm

Rick wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:Didn't you talk about all the ducks using the big operation next door?


Absolutely, and I'm thankful as can be for places the birds can still feel comfortable down here. Without them we'd be screwed even worse. Wish to heck there were a lot more of them.

Only if they stir up enough birds for you.

One thing that I think really helps you all, is you stop hunting at 9:30 if I remember correctly, and it sounds like you control enough property that the birds can feel comfortable off the refuge for most of the day. But it definitely sounds like weekend activity helps in getting them out of their hiding holes after they have settled in.

When the birds know they are crossing the DMZ, hunting gets extremely tough.

I had a tree stand at the south end of the part of the property we hunt. I could watch the geese on our club south of 126, where we don't hunt, get up and fly over my tree stand so close I could here there wing feather rubbing together. That's always cool. This put them safely to the west of our one blind. They would then turn make a left hand turn before they were in range of another of our blinds. They would then head straight down the line of islands that marked the half way point between two blinds so they never passed over any of our blinds.

This is resident birds that have been there for generations, but the others learn pretty quick how to avoid pressure. They actually seem to be learning much quicker than in the past. We don't even seem to get more than 1 day of shooting on new birds before they seem stale. It's why I've largely stopped duck hunting because I don't want a week of zeros for that one day of fun and then back to nothing until we get the next one day spike. I'd bet we shoot half our birds in a small fraction of the days. I'd bet if you took the best days and sorted them, it would be maybe 5 days to get 50% of the birds.

It sounds like more areas are starting to be more like that.

You definitely have it pretty good there. I'd love to get down there and hunt with you before you retire. I've heard enough. I'd love to see it. If only you weren't nearly 1,000 miles away.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Ducaholic » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:12 pm

Rick wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:Didn't you talk about all the ducks using the big operation next door?


Absolutely, and I'm thankful as can be for places the birds can still feel comfortable down here. Without them we'd be screwed even worse. Wish to heck there were a lot more of them.




Where you sitting is not a bad place to be.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Ducaholic » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:16 pm

Every situation is different. Hard to compare one to another.
Last edited by Ducaholic on Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Ducaholic » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:19 pm

Darren wrote:
Ducaholic wrote:
Rick wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:I believe the problem is too many safe havens.


What happened here was plainly the opposite: too many unsafe places.



Here for you but not here for me. Safe Havens are a huge issue here.


Too much safe haven for you?

Only safe stuff on my end, SE La coastal marshes, is on wide open bays. Has me wondering if I might try some shoreline hunts like those I did many years back when just getting started.....surprisingly productive at times with puddlers in addition to the dogs and buffles.



Yeah two NWR’s with bed and breakfast and a half dozen private private ops doing the same have put a damper on things. Add in degrading habitat and too many peeps and it’s not a pretty scenario over all. But I love it and won’t stop trying to knock em out of the sky with equal fervor again this year.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Duck Engr » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:08 pm

This has been a fun read. Highlights Larry’s dilemma. The grass is always greener. “Need more rest areas” vs “too many rest areas, need more of them to be hunted”. I’ve come around to Rick’s usual answer. We, as humans, need to stop having so many kids.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Rick » Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:21 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
Only if they stir up enough birds for you.

One thing that I think really helps you all, is you stop hunting at 9:30 if I remember correctly, and it sounds like you control enough property that the birds can feel comfortable off the refuge for most of the day. But it definitely sounds like weekend activity helps in getting them out of their hiding holes after they have settled in.



I take the longer view that without safe quality habitat even fewer birds would be coming, much less sticking around, and we'd be totally screwed. Tickles, more than annoys, me that the bulk of our neighbor's birds soon learn how not to get banged out of their haven when disturbed, as they, in what I believe an important grand-scale sense, are our area's live decoys.

Can only wish our marsh were big enough to provide more birds similarly comfortable elbow room between guns. And that our 9:30 curfew meant much more than "brunch time," but even with helpful weather, midday movement just isn't remotely what it once was. Birds are sick of our shit, and I can't blame them.
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Re: Preseason

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:38 am

That's why I think more time to rest and less area to rest.

Closed season and everything is a refuge.

Many of your birds at the end of the season have been hunted for over 100 days without a break. I am sure they are sick of it.

How do we change that? How do we get maximum value from the resource? How do we get the most people to get the most enjoyment?

That comes to figuring out how to limit making them nocturnal. Limit them concentrating in safe havens. How do we spread the wealth?

The population is healthy. The harvest is sustainable and probably in many cases could tolerate a considerably higher harvest. The problem is overly harassed birds. Too many either quickly vacate the area or move to safe havens as they have been conditioned to do.

We have different problems than in the 80's. We have abundance. We just aren't getting the most from it. How to better spread the abundance?

I like my 4 opening days. More weekend hunting days. More days for the birds to rest, but less place for them to rest. Early for those that like early and late for those that like late. I think it spreads the wealth better. I think this would spread them around much better and we would see more birds acting normally.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Rick » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:55 am

You can hypothesis scenarios until you're blue, but we're still hunting in the real world.
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Re: Preseason

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:34 am

Rick wrote:You can hypothesis scenarios until you're blue, but we're still hunting in the real world.

The rules can and have change over time. Season dates are not set in stone.

Nothing I suggest couldn't be changed. The bowfishing club I was part of has actually had tremendous success changing the rules in Illinois. They've got quite a few lakes opened up. They've got new species opened up. It can happen.

Plus, who doesn't appreciate that opening day is usually good hunting? Who doesn't appreciate that most hunters cannot hunt most M-F so more S-S dates would increase opportunities.

Federal rules have changed.

Lreynolds wrote:For season dates it's always a few wanting earlier seasons, and a bunch wanting later seasons, and the 2 groups of people are usually surprised to learn that the other group exists.

And both groups get some of what they want. Isn't that how it is supposed to work, even in the real world?

Which part is not real?
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Re: Preseason

Postby Darren » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:04 am

Ducaholic wrote:
Yeah two NWR’s with bed and breakfast and a half dozen private private ops doing the same have put a damper on things. Add in degrading habitat and too many peeps and it’s not a pretty scenario over all. But I love it and won’t stop trying to knock em out of the sky with equal fervor again this year.


:thumbsup:

You and me both, likely count Rick in. Sounds like Eric's going to be traveling all over chasing them. Dave, well, we're gonna see. :lol:
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Re: Preseason

Postby Darren » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:12 am

Rick wrote:
Can only wish our marsh were big enough to provide more birds similarly comfortable elbow room between guns. And that our 9:30 curfew meant much more than "brunch time," but even with helpful weather, midday movement just isn't remotely what it once was. Birds are sick of our shit, and I can't blame them.


Agreed; from my perspective, its far less about how many are coming than it is what those that are here are doing while here. They find their holes and stick to it, can't blame them for being smarter than us and adapting to pressure that, despite fewer hunters, I believe is HIGHER than long held averages. This is due to equipment advances, etc. allowing access to everywhere except those spots only administrative controls are keeping us out of, because its surely not a lack of mechanical capability to get there.

Common theme from many of us is sitting in blinds watching birds hopping from safe haven to safe haven. Had one jam up hunt in such a safe haven this season that was quite enjoyable to turn the tables, but next morning they'd already adapted.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Ricky Spanish » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:46 am

Ok I scouted. I went to a part of the lake nobody hunts and holy guacamole. Thousands of mallards and I never saw em?
Then the fishermen said go to here and look.
Oh my God.
Please...don't try and convince me that there is shortage of ducks I had em all and couldn't touch em.
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Re: Preseason

Postby DComeaux » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:20 am

Darren wrote: You and me both, likely count Rick in. Sounds like Eric's going to be traveling all over chasing them. Dave, well, we're gonna see. :lol:


The furthest I'm gonna travel this year is is to Chenier, pending this hurricane seasons outcome. I met with the power company last week for their new pole set location and our power drop, and have a pile of paper work and permits to get through. We set our pole this past weekend and plumbed temp water.
Next is tractor work to level things out when it's dry enough (it's getting there) and to finish picking up debris from the second storm. Then there's limestone to put down and an RV cover to order and install, but first there's the stamped engineered drawings to be submitted on that and a sketch with a material list for our 24 x 24 cemented screened area with the same sized, existing, cover only, connected slab rebuild.
It's going to be a busy spring and summer, and I pray that the tropics give us a break this year. Another year like last year and I'll probably give up. I've seen a few local residents and camp owners not coming back. It was touch and go for me for a while. A roller coaster of emotions.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Darren » Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:53 pm

Sounds like a plan, sincerely hope all goes smooth for you.

+1 on the hopes for storms to find others/elsewhere to bother, could use the break for sure.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Rick » Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:14 pm

Darren wrote:+1 on the hopes for storms to find others/elsewhere to bother, could use the break for sure.


Would, of course, rather they all burned out in the middle of the Atlantic. One of those deals where you hate to take the lick but don't want to wish it on anyone else, either.
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Re: Preseason

Postby DComeaux » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:29 pm

Forgot to mention that I saw ducks in all of the waterholes visible from the road. Not an overwhelming amount by any means, but it was fowl. Saw a few fully dressed BW preening on the canal banks. We also brought our rods and made a quick trip to a walk up hole. We caught a 1 man limit of reds pretty quick and they're in the fridge soaking up seasoning getting ready for the grease Friday evening.
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Re: Preseason

Postby BGkirk » Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:33 pm

DComeaux wrote:Forgot to mention that I saw ducks in all of the waterholes visible from the road. Not an overwhelming amount by any means, but it was fowl. Saw a few fully dressed BW preening on the canal banks. We also brought our rods and made a quick trip to a walk up hole. We caught a 1 man limit of reds pretty quick and they're in the fridge soaking up seasoning getting ready for the grease Friday evening.
How’s the water level?


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Re: Preseason

Postby DComeaux » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:03 am

BGkirk wrote:
DComeaux wrote:Forgot to mention that I saw ducks in all of the waterholes visible from the road. Not an overwhelming amount by any means, but it was fowl. Saw a few fully dressed BW preening on the canal banks. We also brought our rods and made a quick trip to a walk up hole. We caught a 1 man limit of reds pretty quick and they're in the fridge soaking up seasoning getting ready for the grease Friday evening.
How’s the water level?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The water levels in all marshes south of 82 were very low. The guy I met with the power company last week hunts directly south of of our camp a couple of miles in the marsh and he told me that the last day of the season he got stuck in the marsh with his surface drive. I'm thinking these marshes may have received a deposit of soil when the gulf withdrew from the land.

I did take notice of a more tan or light brown color in the propwash rather than usual black sulphur smelling stuff we would normally have. This was when we ran out to look after the storm, and the opening day of the second split hunt I made, solo.
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Re: Preseason

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:22 am

If you are driving down the road and a migratory bird flies in front of your car, is that a crime?

My opposition to this is that it will be selectively enforced. It will be a policy tool.

https://www.eagles.org/take-action/wind-turbine-fatalities/

A 2013 study published in The Wildlife Society Bulletin found that wind turbines killed an estimated 573,000 birds annually in the United States. And that figure was almost 7 years ago.


At the infamous Altamont Wind Resource Area alone, more than 2,000 Golden Eagles have been killed by the wind turbines there.


Notice NPR didn't mention this annual carnage. Nope, it was a single event in the oil industry. They then went on to the non sequitur of global warming and what is their solution? About 10 times as many wind turbines.

This is not the right regulatory approach. It will not stop the massive destructive expansion of wind. It will be used to punish the administration enemies and the friends will get a pass as wind currently does.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Duck Engr » Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:07 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:If you are driving down the road and a migratory bird flies in front of your car, is that a crime?

My opposition to this is that it will be selectively enforced. It will be a policy tool.

https://www.eagles.org/take-action/wind-turbine-fatalities/

A 2013 study published in The Wildlife Society Bulletin found that wind turbines killed an estimated 573,000 birds annually in the United States. And that figure was almost 7 years ago.


At the infamous Altamont Wind Resource Area alone, more than 2,000 Golden Eagles have been killed by the wind turbines there.


Notice NPR didn't mention this annual carnage. Nope, it was a single event in the oil industry. They then went on to the non sequitur of global warming and what is their solution? About 10 times as many wind turbines.

This is not the right regulatory approach. It will not stop the massive destructive expansion of wind. It will be used to punish the administration enemies and the friends will get a pass as wind currently does.
Bingo. It will very much be selectively enforced, just like many other laws have been in recent years. I don’t ask for much from the government, but what I do ask for is a uniform application of the law. That seems to be farther and farther from reality with each passing year.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Lreynolds » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:37 pm

For decades, "incidental take" when it can be avoided or limited was negotiated, permitted, regulated, and sometimes litigated to settlement. The Trump administration acted to make it irrelevant by saying the Migratory Bird Treaty Act has no bearing unless the activity itself intends to kill migratory birds. We fought that interpretation at the Flyways from the very beginning, based on precedent, ecological consequences and common sense successes. No industry was critically impaired by the application of MBTA protections to incidental take, but yes, there is a business cost associated with making sure that an activity doesn't negatively impact environmental health, which happens to include birds.

Sorry, but despite that cost, it's why mine effluent isn't allowed to be discharged in natural watersheds or toxins from production are not allowed spewed into the air. It isn't the INTENT of mining or power-generation to compromise environmental health, but you still aren't allowed to do it. Well ..... except in the mind of President Trump on a number of issues, including this one.

But we ..... and I'm speaking mostly from the waterfowl management community's view .... don't want to just reverse the Trump administrations actions on this issue. We want to clarify "incidental take" so that business, industry, communities, and wildlife conservation professionals have a firm idea of what is or is not legal and the process for compliance.

That is a better solution to selective enforcement concerns compared to no regulation at all. And right out of the blocks, it would eliminate ridiculous strawman contentions like "well now, hitting a migratory bird with my car will be a crime".

Sorry for the lunch-hour rant ......
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Re: Preseason

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:32 pm

Lreynolds wrote:We want to clarify "incidental take" so that business, industry, communities, and wildlife conservation professionals have a firm idea of what is or is not legal and the process for compliance.

Agree 100%.

Included in that must be strict limits that cannot be negotiated away in the permitting process.

On a per unit energy basis, all energy sources should be permitted to incidentally kill the same amount of wildlife as all other energy sources.

For example, at present about 2/3rd of our energy comes from oil and gas so about 2/3rd of what is determined as acceptable from the energy industry should be permitted for oil and gas. Wind on the other hand produces less than 3%, so they should be permitted to incidentally kill less than 3% of the energy sector total. As the energy sector grows, the aggregate acceptable incidental killing should not grow, so the per unit energy limits become more strict in order to remain sustainable.

But first we must ask if this really is a problem that needs to be regulated?

https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/threats-to-birds.php

Granted their aggregate numbers don't make sense. Their low value for the total is less than the low value for just cats. Assuming they can't add, and the individual numbers aren't garbage.

Cats are by far #1 and kill between 1.4B - 2.4B birds or about 72% of all birds killed.

Building glass is #2 and kills about 0.4B - 1.0B birds or about 18% of all birds killed.

Vehicles are 3rd and kill 0.09B - 0.2B or about 6%.

All other industries combined only kill about 0.1B or about 3% of the birds.

Lreynolds wrote: The Trump administration acted to make it irrelevant by saying the Migratory Bird Treaty Act has no bearing unless the activity itself intends to kill migratory birds.

According to the FWS website, those industries do not appear to be relevant at all. If they are responsible for such a small fraction of all birds incidentally killed, why should they be regulated at all? What is the scientific basis for it? It seems like sound policy based on the information provided by the FWS on their website.

My car comment was not purely sarcastic, but I could have just easily asked about your cat or your windows.

Lreynolds wrote:yes, there is a business cost associated with making sure that an activity doesn't negatively impact environmental health, which happens to include birds


Does the cost justify the benefit? It appears that even if 0 birds were killed by these industries, the net benefit would be negligible compared to the top 3 unregulated sources that kill 97% of the birds according to the FWS.

It is not about not caring for the environment. It is about costly regulation that doesn't make a significant difference.

Maybe the FWS website is all BS, but if it is not, I don't see the basis for regulating this minor factor. If we aren't going to regulate the 97%, what is the justification for regulating the 3%?

And anybody that has a cat that they allow out of the house and got upset about this regulation change is a hypocrite. Anybody that opposes extermination of feral cats and got upset about this regulation is a hypocrite.

The apartment complex I lived in outside Atlanta, we would have dozens of ducklings hatch and in less than a week, we would have but a few ducklings left and a lot of fat cats. It was an immediate massacre every spring. I hate $%*@# cats. Do something about them or don't worry about these other things.
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Re: Preseason

Postby Lreynolds » Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:00 pm

Indeed. I've recently heard similar arguments about our game-law enforcement that illegal harvest is such a small % of overall hunter kill, why are we spending so much to regulate it? Of course, those % data come from periods where the activity was already regulated.

Conceding (actually heartily agreeing) your point about FAR more important unregulated sources of bird mortality, and acknowledging my inherent bias from being in the middle of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill as well as annual oil spills, all preventable with responsible operation, that kill birds here in Louisiana, I'm arguing only that the previous administration's MBTA M-decision was an unnecessary overreach, and the current administration's decision to not just vacate that decision but to clarify all aspects of "incidental take" is a positive step.

But I've been a government employee long enough to KNOW that if the people, through their elected representatives, decide that outdoor pet cats, windows, driving, and unfettered energy development are more important than migratory birds, then so be it.
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