NoTox On A Progressive. Part I.

by **cannon** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Okay, gentlemen, in an effort to speed through the voluminous and often arduous task of loading case upon case of steel shot, I took it upon myself hunt down and impulse-purchase the only progressive reloading machine on the planet advertised as a progressive which is suitable for loading steel shot. For the record, this is an experts only post, and if you are a newbie you should hit the "back" button now. I will say this once, and once only, kids: DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!

Now, my criteria for this machine is quite simple: it must load ONE and only ONE specific steel load, and that load only need be generally somewhat consistent. It must NOT bridge shot on the drop and it must stay within 2 grains of the specified powder drop. I couldn't give a rip less about loading lead on the thing. I ONLY care about loading a 1 1/8 oz load of steel #1's on this machine. I mention all that so that you'll know I wasn't trying to shoot the moon with this rig. How badly do I want this? Badly enough to drop $900 on the machine & another $247 for shipping and bushings to ensure that I had what I needed. And without question, if the machine does what it claims, its worth every penny.

Gee whiz was I happy to see my UPS man arrive . . . he's like santa claus around my place. I'm almost certain I heard angels break into songs.

I quickly unboxed the machine and bolted it to my bench. Now, to put this in perspective, this thing shipped from Idaho. It takes a week when you're driving something from Idaho to Arkansas, so there was some unrest on my part as I anxiously awaited the arrival. Finally, it was mine.

Cue the angels . . .

Quickly, I dug through the box and began to set the machine up. It was just then that I noticed something was missing. Uggggghhhhh. No steel shot bushings! Crap, now another week to wait on stuff to come from Idaho. Frustrated, disappointed, pissed. So I just dropped in a sack of #8's and began to run shells. Well, to be fair, run shells and spill shot all over the place. How much? Glad you asked. I weighed all of what I picked up when it was over, and it was just under 5 lbs. Yes, that's what I said, I SPILLED 5 lbs of shot on the floor. So, for the next 5 days, I cleaned up spilled shot and powder. For those unfamiliar with progressive machines, they are really, really messy. If anyone tells you differently, its because they're ashamed of what they paid for theirs and they're trying to defend their actions. I digress . . . so anyway, my steel shot bushings finally arrived today.

In summary, new progressive machine. Expensive. Big. Messy. More in part II.

by **duckkillerclyde** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:56 pm

hands down the best brand of press ever made.

by **duckkillerclyde** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:00 pm

Here is a review I wrote a few months ago on it.

http://www.ksducks.com/forum/index.php?topic=254.0

by **cannon** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:43 pm

duckkillerclyde wrote:hands down the best brand of press ever made.

Do you have an L/S-1000? I still haven't figured out the primer assembly to my liking. Either protruding or concaved head on the hull.

I'll say this: it did actually drop #1's at least 95% of the time without bridging. There are a lot of sharp edges on that thing. I've got sore hands.

by **jarbo03** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:58 pm

I am impressed with the 495 gr. shot drop. If it gets you within 2 pellets and 1 gr. of powder that would be great, especially with big flake powder. This is the most intense I have been while reading a post in a while, very intrigued.

by **cannon** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:12 pm

jarbo03 wrote:I am impressed with the 495 gr. shot drop. If it gets you within 2 pellets and 1 gr. of powder that would be great, especially with big flake powder. This is the most intense I have been while reading a post in a while, very intrigued.

Dude, the first week of messing with this thing was the mother of all frustrations, but the powder drops and shot drops have been good. Primer mechanism, on the other hand, is a beast that I haven't tamed yet. I feel confident that I'll get the primer issue dialed in eventually. Jury's still out, but I'm optimistic. It's a lot more of a workout than the old MEC, that's for sure.

by **jarbo03** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:20 pm

Definitely gonna keep up to date on this one. Progressives can be a hassle, my current machine is a nitemare, an old 366 without a self index. You have to rotate the bottom plate by hand each time, not good for the rhythm needed to run a progressive.

by **duckkillerclyde** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:23 pm

cannon wrote:
duckkillerclyde wrote:hands down the best brand of press ever made.

Do you have an L/S-1000?

\

No. My friend has one that I use to load target shells on. I don't know the model number.

by **jehler** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:41 am

Need to get the hydraulic kit for it, If you just had the hydraulics I think it would work beautifully without any mess

by **assateague** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:55 am

As someone who doesn't reload, and never has, let me ask a question- why is the powder so different for steel? I understand the burn rates, different physical shot properties and such, but it seems that with such widely varying burn rates among "normal" powders, it would seem easy enough to make one work. I don't get why the powder is physically different. Why can't a granular (if that's the right term) powder work properly for steel? Why the flakes?

by **jehler** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:39 am

assateague wrote:As someone who doesn't reload, and never has, let me ask a question- why is the powder so different for steel? I understand the burn rates, different physical shot properties and such, but it seems that with such widely varying burn rates among "normal" powders, it would seem easy enough to make one work. I don't get why the powder is physically different. Why can't a granular (if that's the right term) powder work properly for steel? Why the flakes?

if the man made it easy nobody would buy factory shells

by **cannon** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:45 am

assateague wrote:As someone who doesn't reload, and never has, let me ask a question- why is the powder so different for steel? I understand the burn rates, different physical shot properties and such, but it seems that with such widely varying burn rates among "normal" powders, it would seem easy enough to make one work. I don't get why the powder is physically different. Why can't a granular (if that's the right term) powder work properly for steel? Why the flakes?

It has something to do with the stuff they use to retard the way the stuff burns. Dunno what, but something.

I fought that beast again this morning & lost. I'm still not sure it ain't goin back. The shot drops were waaay more inconsistent today, to the tune of 40 grains.

by **assateague** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:04 am

Must be the "smokeless" components. I know when I make my black powder, I can change the burn rates quite a bit just by changing the percentage of sulfur as little as 3%.

by **cannon** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:36 pm

Well, here's the follow-up. After perpetually tweaking the machine, I loaded 12 boxes of 1 1/8 oz #1's this afternoon in just under an hour. To be fair, probably 1 in 10 of the shot drops bridged, and that meant manually dropping a bit into the hull before indexing. On the other hand, I loaded 3 boxes of 20 gauge steel today and it took me an hour and a half. I'm still sayin I'm satisfied with the P/W machine. My only remaining issue is with the positioning of the wad carrier, which needs a slight adjustment. Other than that, it appears to be running like a sewing machine. I suspect that as my comfort level increases, I'll get to the place that I can knock out 2 cases an hour.

So, I'm calling it a win. That said, this machine is a luxury. The single stages, on the other hand, are indispensable . . . I simply don't think that you'd ever have the versatility I want using only a progressive. Besides, I have "staff" to run the single-stages for me.

by **assateague** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:54 pm

by **cannon** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:35 pm

So easy an 8-year old can do it . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DYTopmr-lo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

by **jehler** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:46 pm

What's the going rate at the cannon house, you have slave labor or do you give her a handout? Jr gets 20 cents a round

by **cannon** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:07 pm

jehler wrote:What's the going rate at the cannon house, you have slave labor or do you give her a handout? Jr gets 20 cents a round

It's a little less generous than that round here. Rule is: go make me some bullets or stay home with your grandmother when season rolls 'round. So yeah, it's pretty much slave labor.

by **jehler** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:18 pm

Jr spends all his money on hunting and fishing supplies so paying him to load my shells works very well for me. He usually cranks out a box or two a day after school for a good part of the fall and winter.

by **cannon** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:47 pm

As it should be. That young man will never go hungry. He has the tools.

Kill, clean, cook, consume. The necessities for survival. I don't think kids should be allowed to enroll in kindergarten until & unless they can demonstrate proficiency at gutting something edible.

by **Flightstopper** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:00 pm

cannon wrote:As it should be. That young man will never go hungry. He has the tools.

Kill, clean, cook, consume. The necessities for survival. I don't think kids should be allowed to enroll in kindergarten until & unless they can demonstrate proficiency at gutting something edible.

Where'd you buy that duck from? We all know damn well you didn't shoot it, it's not a spoon.

by **cannon** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:21 pm

Flightstopper wrote:
cannon wrote:As it should be. That young man will never go hungry. He has the tools.

Kill, clean, cook, consume. The necessities for survival. I don't think kids should be allowed to enroll in kindergarten until & unless they can demonstrate proficiency at gutting something edible.

Where'd you buy that duck from? We all know damn well you didn't shoot it, it's not a spoon.

Sun shines even on a dog's butt from time to time. That was probably a cripple someone else shot that we found in the ditch somewhere. :oops:

by **jarbo03** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:30 pm

Cool pics Cannon, glad to hear the machine gets to stay.

Couldn't imagine 12 boxes in an hour, that is prob more steel rounds than I will shoot in a year. It's about time to get my prog. rolling with dove season coming up, will continue to slave over the Sizemaster with steel shot!

Edit: What kind of resizer does the new machine have?

by **duckkillerclyde** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:02 am

What kind of price do you think you have into a box?

by **cannon** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:35 am

jarbo03 wrote:Cool pics Cannon, glad to hear the machine gets to stay. Couldn't imagine 12 boxes in an hour, that is prob more steel rounds than I will shoot in a year. It's about time to get my prog. rolling with dove season coming up, will continue to slave over the Sizemaster with steel shot!

Edit: What kind of resizer does the new machine have?

It's got a ring sizer for the brass with full-length sizers for the hull. It'd be almost impossible to buckle a hull.

duckkillerclyde wrote:What kind of price do you think you have into a box?

Under $7.00 on most of these, but only because I got a monster deal and paid $0 shipping on the last 240 lbs of shot and 4,000 wads I bought. Some of 'em are between $7.00 & $7.50, because I'm using new, primed hulls, but I got them for $50/1000 delivered, so total price per box only goes up about 50 cents for the new hulls. My 3-inch BB load runs me almost $10.

by **duckkillerclyde** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:38 am

I've never hand loaded anything but target loads.

I know the PW presses do a great job on the crimp and I realize there is a wad between the powder and the shot. My question is, how do you ensure a water tight fit?

When I hand load for target, I will load hulls until the primer will not seat anymore or the plastic splits. I've only ever loaded into STS and AA hulls. How many time do you plan on loading these hulls for waterfowl hunting?

The only REAL advantage I see with hand loading for hunting is consistency.

Have you patterned any yet?

Without looking in the book at my friends house for how much powder we use here is what I load for target.

STS hull, green dot powder, 1oz #7 1/2, winchester primer, wind jammer wad. When we chrony these I am 1130 to 1150.

How much speed variation do you have with the steel. I think my 20fps is pretty good but like I said we only have ever done target loads. I don't hand load centerfire and I've always tried to stay at 1150 for my target loads. And to be honest with you I don't know if staying withing 20fps is good or not. I don't take it too seriously, I do it to save money. I can load a box of target loads for about $3.

Not sure if they are still in business but I use to buy my stuff from a guy in Centralia, WA. Connie's Components is what he called himself but he ran all of his stuff out of an old barn and he was old 10 years ago when I started to hand load. The guy might be dead by now.

*just did a quick google search. Here is the link.

http://www.conniescomponents.com/

by **cannon** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:08 pm

I seal them with spar urethane. I've actually picked up a box of them that had been submerged for over 2 weeks and they fired.

I pretty much do the same with waterfowl loads, which is load them until the hulls wear out. A lot of gold medals will go 6 or 7 rounds before I pitch them.

As for why, consistency is absolutely a major reason. Cost is another. Average price for a decent waterfowl load around here is about $15/box, unless you consider Winchester experts or federal game shocks, one of which is complete crap and the other uses the dirtiest burning powder I've ever seen. When I started loading, I was shooting Remington nitro mags and/or Winchester dryloks only, and they run about $18 retail around here. I figure I save about $1,000 annually on shells. I spend that and more tinkering with loads.

Steel loads will deviate pretty dramatically in velocity, but with loads traveling 1,400-1,900 FPS, that's gonna happen. Doesn't change lethal distance much. I chrono & pattern all my steel loads, and if I can't get 90% patterns @ 40 yds, they go in the scrap pile.

I used to get all my lead shot through Connie's, but it got real hard to get in touch with them after the old man died.

Here is a 40-yard pattern I recently shot: