Which is better?

Re: Which is better?

Postby jarbo03 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:12 pm

DeadEye_Dan wrote:It's not wizardry...it's just science.


I know what a lot of guys "say". I have a hard time taking it at anymore than face value when I watch them use 3-4-5+ shells per bird.

A couple guys I hunt with are just ridiculous...guys that will run 2-3 lines of skeet with a .410 and never drop a bird. One guy is a Master Class sporting clays shooter...you hand them a gun and shells (any gun, any shells) and birds start to die.

I will contend the absolute best duck load by any measurement is an AA 1 1/8oz load of 8's @ 1300...burn 100 of those a month and by the time season opens you'll be shocked how much more effective you are.

Exactly
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Re: Which is better?

Postby jehler » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:50 am

DeadEye_Dan wrote:It's not wizardry...it's just science.

I kind if consider myself a wizard, made my own wand and everything
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Re: Which is better?

Postby johnsinger » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:55 am

Last evening, I spent some time drawing 30" circles and crunching the numbers on about a dozen targets that I shot this past weekend. I was patterning the 16 gauge shotgun that I mentioned in earlier posts. I have opened the chokes on the gun to a light modified. I was shooting BP loads of 7/8 oz of sizes #3, #1, #B steel shot at published velocities of 1550 fps. All shot sizes patterned at between 64% (#3) and 72% (#B) at 40 yards. This load uses the VP-80(PT1680) wad. This wad is the 12 gauge sister to the VP-65 (PT1265) wad. I have yet to fire a bad pattern with these wads. I am really looking forward to shooting this gun/loads on game this fall.

In my 12 gauges, I shoot 7/8 oz #B steel for geese at 1700 fps and 1 oz #2 and #3 at 1500-1600 fps for ducks. These loads pattern well and perform well on game. IE: I shot 12 Canada geese this past season with 16 shells.

Regarding the original question: I vote for the smaller payload at higher velocity. If the shot patterns well in the 30" circle at 40 yards, why do I need a greater payload? What advantage does a greater payload offer at the expense of greater recoil?

Jehler, you make the statement that projectiles fired at greater velocity slow down faster. If I recall my physics correctly KE = 1/2 x mass x velocity(squared). Can you compare the energy per pellet for a single shot size fired at say 1365 fps to the same pellet fired at say 1600 fps?

DeadEye_Dan, I agree completely that the best investment that any shooter can make is to practice. Watch the duck hunting boards as the seasons get closer there will be a number of guys asking what magic new gun or magic choke or gimmick shotshell is going to work best for them. If they would take the money that they waste on such gimmicks and spend it on trap/skeet/sporting or informal clays, they would be much better shots. Somebody once told me: "The secret to success is that there is no secret to success."
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Re: Which is better?

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:33 am

John can confirm, but I think he was referring to steel shot.

I too have seen numerous studies showing that that faster you start steel, the faster it bleeds energy.
It has something to do with the increased drag (from the higher speed) and the relatively light weight of steel not having the good ballistic properties.
And the studies I read, I want to say a 300 fps advantage (1350 vs 1650) was something like a 40-60 fps advantage at 40 yards.


As far as recoil - someone run the numbers on 1 3/8@ 1300 vs 1 1/4@1600 - I doubt there is much difference at all.
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Re: Which is better?

Postby jehler » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:49 am

johnsinger wrote:
Jehler, you make the statement that projectiles fired at greater velocity slow down faster. If I recall my physics correctly KE = 1/2 x mass x velocity(squared). Can you compare the energy per pellet for a single shot size fired at say 1365 fps to the same pellet fired at say 1600 fps?


2's at 40 yards
1365 fps: (3' reading) 4.30 ftlb's with 743 fps terminal velocity, reaches target in .126 seconds, 1.79" gel penetration
1600 fps: 5.12 ftlb's with 811 fps terminal velocity, reaches target in .112 seconds, 2.02" of gel penetration
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Re: Which is better?

Postby jehler » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:51 am

DeadEye_Dan wrote:

As far as recoil - someone run the numbers on 1 3/8@ 1300 vs 1 1/4@1600 - I doubt there is much difference at all.

for recoil I have to fire up the ole windows 2000 desktop, diffrent program, maybe tonight, need weight of the shotgun, I'll use 8 pounds?
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Re: Which is better?

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:11 am

I found this calculator online. I guessed at the charge weight, but kept it the same for both, I'm not sure how accurate the 19grs is or what effect the charge weight will have on recoil.

Also used the same weight for the firearm @ 8lbs

1 3/8 oz (601grains) @ 1300

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366297842.574981.jpg


1 1/4oz (546grains) @ 1600

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366297889.289484.jpg
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Re: Which is better?

Postby assateague » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:42 am

That's actually a pretty good chunk, almost 30% increase.
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Re: Which is better?

Postby Flightstopper » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:32 am

DeadEye_Dan wrote:I found this calculator online. I guessed at the charge weight, but kept it the same for both, I'm not sure how accurate the 19grs is or what effect the charge weight will have on recoil.

Also used the same weight for the firearm @ 8lbs

1 3/8 oz (601grains) @ 1300

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366297842.574981.jpg


1 1/4oz (546grains) @ 1600

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366297889.289484.jpg

For a steel load up your powder charge to 35'ish.
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Re: Which is better?

Postby jarbo03 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:45 pm

When you shoot an O/U the difference is huge. 1oz of #3s gives me plenty of pattern density at 40 yds. I reload so I always have options to fit the situation. If buying factory ammo by the case, I would go bigger, better to be overgunned than under.
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Geese: 59
Pheasant: 4
Quail: 2
Prairie Chicken: 4
Dove: 168
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Re: Which is better?

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:41 pm

I question this calculator.

I re-ran the numbers adjusting the powder charge to 35grs.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313922.665323.jpg


ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313935.799401.jpg


This is why I question it...

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313975.615100.jpg


With my previous calculations, the recoil was similar to a 7lb 7mm RemMag (and since I own one, that seemed about right).

With the current calculations, it puts the 12ga recoil on par with a .50BMG?? Does that seem right?
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Re: Which is better?

Postby jehler » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:43 pm

ill fire up the dinosaur and run those numbers on lowerys
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Re: Which is better?

Postby assateague » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:51 pm

DeadEye_Dan wrote:I question this calculator.

I re-ran the numbers adjusting the powder charge to 35grs.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313922.665323.jpg


ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313935.799401.jpg


This is why I question it...

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313975.615100.jpg


With my previous calculations, the recoil was similar to a 7lb 7mm RemMag (and since I own one, that seemed about right).

With the current calculations, it puts the 12ga recoil on par with a .50BMG?? Does that seem right?



They had a smaller guy shooting the .50 for comparison.
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Re: Which is better?

Postby DeadEye_Dan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:18 pm

assateague wrote:
DeadEye_Dan wrote:I question this calculator.

I re-ran the numbers adjusting the powder charge to 35grs.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313922.665323.jpg


ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313935.799401.jpg


This is why I question it...

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366313975.615100.jpg


With my previous calculations, the recoil was similar to a 7lb 7mm RemMag (and since I own one, that seemed about right).

With the current calculations, it puts the 12ga recoil on par with a .50BMG?? Does that seem right?



They had a smaller guy shooting the .50 for comparison.

I knew there was a logical explanation.
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Re: Which is better?

Postby Flightstopper » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:42 pm

.50 really doesn't kick that much. I've shot one and people I know that have shot one compare it to a 12 gauge. Now take the muzzle break off and you'll be looking at significantly different data.
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Re: Which is better?

Postby johnsinger » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:53 pm

[/quote]
2's at 40 yards
1365 fps: (3' reading) 4.30 ftlb's with 743 fps terminal velocity, reaches target in .126 seconds, 1.79" gel penetration
1600 fps: 5.12 ftlb's with 811 fps terminal velocity, reaches target in .112 seconds, 2.02" of gel penetration[/quote]

Those differences seem significant if you think about it. It is penetration and energy transfer that kills game. Assuming that the pattern density for either load is sufficient that say 5 pellets strike a bird. At 40 yards each #2 pellet at an initial velocity of 1365 fps strikes the bird with 4.30 ft-lbs for a total energy of 21.5 ft-lbs. The pellets with an initial velocity of 1600 fps each strike a bird with 5.12 ft-lbs for a total energy of 25.6 ft-lbs. That is a difference of 4.1 ft-lbs.
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Re: Which is better?

Postby NuffDaddy » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:00 pm

I think that's why a lot of guys like the mid range velocity. Around 1500fps. Your can get a good payload and still have killing power.
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