Which is better?

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:46 pm

A slower heavier load or a lighter faster load? As far as lethality and pattern density? I realize the speed helps with the lead. So basically which is better, a 1 1/4 oz of #1 steel at 1450fps or 1oz of #3 at 1700fps?

by **Flightstopper** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:55 pm

NuffDaddy wrote:A slower heavier load or a lighter faster load? As far as lethality and pattern density? I realize the speed helps with the lead. So basically which is better, a 1 1/4 oz of #1 steel at 1450fps or 1oz of #3 at 1700fps?

The first load you listed is very close to what I have been reloading. With #3's they loose energy faster since they don't have the mass a #1 pellet does. You can achieve the same result by upping the pellet size and drop the velocity and maintain the same lethal distance as a #3 at 1700. Also at 1700 fps the load can start to become more inconsistent with the pattern and most have trouble keeping the pattern together. I don't have the experience with the faster loads others do so I can't really say first hand. I'll leave the rest for Jehler and the other ballistic nerds.

by **DeadEye_Dan** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:18 pm

Whoever told you that speed helps with the lead is smoking rocks.

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:20 pm

DeadEye_Dan wrote:Whoever told you that speed helps with the lead is smoking rocks.

this, very negligible

by **DeadEye_Dan** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:21 pm

I'm looking for a copy of the chart that shows real numbers

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:21 pm

NuffDaddy wrote:A slower heavier load or a lighter faster load? As far as lethality and pattern density? I realize the speed helps with the lead. So basically which is better, a 1 1/4 oz of #1 steel at 1450fps or 1oz of #3 at 1700fps?

depends on your quarry and conditions, usually neither, a balance between the two is best

My go to load is an ounce and a quarter of 3's at 1505

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:22 pm

DeadEye_Dan wrote:I'm looking for a copy of the chart that shows real numbers

i have software, can give you time to target for any load at any range, then it's just doing the math to compare the lead based on target speed

by **DeadEye_Dan** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:52 pm

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:00 pm

DeadEye_Dan wrote:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

Your only changing the velocity 150fps and 20 yards. How Much difference would 300-400fps change at 40 yards make? Probably a foot, maybe more.

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:11 pm

NuffDaddy wrote:
DeadEye_Dan wrote:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

Your only changing the velocity 150fps and 20 yards. How Much difference would 300-400fps change at 40 yards make? Probably a foot, maybe more.

give me two loads nuff and I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm done at the computer today

by **jarbo03** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:12 pm

Nowhere near a foot of difference. Both loads listed are plenty good for any duck. It's up to you to put the pattern in the right pkace, I prefer the 1oz of #3

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:13 pm

Remember that steel launched at a higher velocity slows down faster than steel with a slower muzzle velocity.

by **DeadEye_Dan** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:14 pm

So what? Can you move a pattern that's 30" in diameter 12" one way or the other @ 40 yards?
This is the same argument that a guy shooting his .30/06 at deer 300 yards away and missing thinking if he only had a .300 Win that he would be shooting 2.4" flatter at the same distance and would be stacking deer like cordwood. The truth is his load and equipment is more capable that he is

If your missing birds - it's not your shells. It's not your gun. It's not your choke.

It's you.

I would take pellet count and pattern density over velocity any day if the week.
Give me a 1 3/8 load of 2's @1250-1300fps and I won't be under gunned for any water fowling situation one could conceivably encounter in North America.

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:30 pm

Don't get me wrong Dan. I'm not saying that velocity is better bet I've hear of a lot of guys who love fast loads. I've always felt the higher pattern density is better that speed. But I don't know anything about ballistics. I just got a reloader a few months ago and once the weather clears a little I want to start putting some different loads together (if i can find any components) and hit the pattern board. Just didn't know which direction to lean towards when loading, density or velocity.

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:39 pm

jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
DeadEye_Dan wrote:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

Your only changing the velocity 150fps and 20 yards. How Much difference would 300-400fps change at 40 yards make? Probably a foot, maybe more.
give me two loads nuff and I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm done at the computer today

1oz #3 at 1700fps-----approx 154 pellets
1 1/4oz #1 at 1500fps------approx 129 pellets

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:48 pm

NuffDaddy wrote:
jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
DeadEye_Dan wrote:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

Your only changing the velocity 150fps and 20 yards. How Much difference would 300-400fps change at 40 yards make? Probably a foot, maybe more.
give me two loads nuff and I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm done at the computer today

1oz #3 at 1700fps-----approx 154 pellets
1 1/4oz #1 at 1500fps------approx 129 pellets

the 3's get to 40 yards in .110 seconds. The 1's get to 40 yards in .116 seconds

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:51 pm

jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
DeadEye_Dan wrote:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

Your only changing the velocity 150fps and 20 yards. How Much difference would 300-400fps change at 40 yards make? Probably a foot, maybe more.
give me two loads nuff and I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm done at the computer today

1oz #3 at 1700fps-----approx 154 pellets
1 1/4oz #1 at 1500fps------approx 129 pellets
the 3's get to 40 yards in .110 seconds. The 1's get to 40 yards in .116 seconds

Big difference there eh. Lol.
How does Remington get away with their hypersonic commercial?

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:52 pm

NuffDaddy wrote:
jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:[quote="DeadEye_Dan"]
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

Your only changing the velocity 150fps and 20 yards. How Much difference would 300-400fps change at 40 yards make? Probably a foot, maybe more.
give me two loads nuff and I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm done at the computer today

1oz #3 at 1700fps-----approx 154 pellets
1 1/4oz #1 at 1500fps------approx 129 pellets
the 3's get to 40 yards in .110 seconds. The 1's get to 40 yards in .116 seconds

Big difference there eh. Lol.
How does Remington get away with their hypersonic commercial?[/quote]if I compare the same size pellets it would better represent

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:01 pm

jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
jehler wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
jehler wrote:[quote="NuffDaddy"][quote="DeadEye_Dan"]
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366235554.580772.jpg

Your only changing the velocity 150fps and 20 yards. How Much difference would 300-400fps change at 40 yards make? Probably a foot, maybe more.
give me two loads nuff and I'll tell you tomorrow, I'm done at the computer today

1oz #3 at 1700fps-----approx 154 pellets
1 1/4oz #1 at 1500fps------approx 129 pellets
the 3's get to 40 yards in .110 seconds. The 1's get to 40 yards in .116 seconds

Big difference there eh. Lol.
How does Remington get away with their hypersonic commercial?[/quote]if I compare the same size pellets it would better represent[/quote]
Go for it.

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:02 pm

here is data on a load of 2's at 1250 and at 1700, on the right you can see the speed at 40 yards, figure the speed of your target at 80 fps and do the math it will give you the difference in lead

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:03 pm

I just did the math and on a crossing duck at 40 yards flying 40mph you need a 6.5 foot lead with the #3 load at 1500fps.
No wonder why I miss most of my passing shots.

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:04 pm

NuffDaddy wrote:I just did the math and on a crossing duck at 40 yards flying 40mph you need a 6.5 foot lead with the #3 load at 1500fps.
No wonder why I miss most of my passing shots.

lol, its an eye opener for sure

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:15 pm

jehler wrote:here is data on a load of 2's at 1250 and at 1700, on the right you can see the speed at 40 yards, figure the speed of your target at 80 fps and do the math it will give you the difference in lead

Load speed--1700fps
Target speed--80fps
Lead--9.04feet

Load speed--1250fps
Target speed--80fps
Lead--11.2feet

Load speed--1700fps
Target speed--60fps
Lead--6.78feet

Load speed--1250fps
Target speed--60fps
Lead--8.4feet

This was all at 40 yards.

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:17 pm

80 fps is like 50 some miles per hour fyi

by **jehler** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:20 pm

Nuff tomorrow I'll post some results at 50, 60 and 70 yards, the lead on those long ones will blow your mind and cause you to question a lot of yahoos

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:25 pm

jehler wrote:80 fps is like 50 some miles per hour fyi

I believe it is 60 mph. 60fps is 40.

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:27 pm

jehler wrote:Nuff tomorrow I'll post some results at 50, 60 and 70 yards, the lead on those long ones will blow your mind and cause you to question a lot of yahoos

I bet. A 1700fps load at 40 is already 9 foot. It's got to be close to 30 foot at 70 yards.

by **jarbo03** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:43 pm

It's easy to see why long shots are difficult.

by **NuffDaddy** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:48 pm

jarbo03 wrote:It's easy to see why long shots are difficult.

Even at practical speeds like 20mph the lead is still almost 4 foot. I'm starting to realize why I've missed a lot of birds in my 4 years of hunting.

by **DeadEye_Dan** » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:06 pm

It's not wizardry...it's just science.

I know what a lot of guys "say". I have a hard time taking it at anymore than face value when I watch them use 3-4-5+ shells per bird.

A couple guys I hunt with are just ridiculous...guys that will run 2-3 lines of skeet with a .410 and never drop a bird. One guy is a Master Class sporting clays shooter...you hand them a gun and shells (any gun, any shells) and birds start to die.

I will contend the absolute best duck load by any measurement is an AA 1 1/8oz load of 8's @ 1300...burn 100 of those a month and by the time season opens you'll be shocked how much more effective you are.

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