Want to sample what gun-free america is like?

[aunt betty]

All you need to do is travel to Chicago, Illinois. It's gun-free.
You'll be shocked at how many guns there are in the gun-free zone.
Apparently there was a lot of shooting last weekend.

[Leakey]

[aunt betty]

There are people who call me Betty out there. I'm ok with it because there is ALWAYS at least two Mikes in the gang.

[SpinnerMan]

All you need to do is travel to Chicago, Illinois. It's gun-free.
You'll be shocked at how many guns there are in the gun-free zone.
Apparently there was a lot of shooting last weekend.

Chicago has concealed carry now just like the rest of the state.

The crime rate is not primarily the result of being gun free. It is ineffective law enforcement. If you saw your neighbor gun down another neighbor in the street, what would you do? Keep silent or do everything in your power to make sure the murderer was put in jail forever? Would your neighbor even gun down your neighbor over something so stupid as most shootings are?

Gun control or lack there of is a second order effect at best.

Think of the stereotypical wild west. Insult someone, even accidentally, an apology was not enough, a gun fight may well ensue. Everybody was well armed, but that didn't stop the violence. It was the lack of effective law enforcement, a society that would generally turn a blind eye, and a subculture that was quick to violence if their honor was insulted (dissed in the more modern ignorant language).

Gun control is a symptom and not the cause. Chicago is unwilling to do what it takes to stop crime so they take pointless and often counter productive measures like gun control. Somehow thinking a society that is filled with people that would murderer other if they were armed can be made safe. The best that society will ever be is a bunch of caged animals that would kill each other if given the opportunity. They wouldn't say it, but that is really what they think of most of us. We are all murderers at heart, so we can't be trusted with a gun.

[don novicki]

I am always glad that I have weapons handy when I drive thru there to NoDak or Sask.. A scary place for sure, eyes forward and pedal to the metal, and I don't care if I am on the thru-way............

[Olly]

All you need to do is travel to Chicago, Illinois. It's gun-free.
You'll be shocked at how many guns there are in the gun-free zone.
Apparently there was a lot of shooting last weekend.

Chicago has concealed carry now just like the rest of the state.

The crime rate is not primarily the result of being gun free. It is ineffective law enforcement. If you saw your neighbor gun down another neighbor in the street, what would you do? Keep silent or do everything in your power to make sure the murderer was put in jail forever? Would your neighbor even gun down your neighbor over something so stupid as most shootings are?

Gun control or lack there of is a second order effect at best.

Think of the stereotypical wild west. Insult someone, even accidentally, an apology was not enough, a gun fight may well ensue. Everybody was well armed, but that didn't stop the violence. It was the lack of effective law enforcement, a society that would generally turn a blind eye, and a subculture that was quick to violence if their honor was insulted (dissed in the more modern ignorant language).

Gun control is a symptom and not the cause. Chicago is unwilling to do what it takes to stop crime so they take pointless and often counter productive measures like gun control. Somehow thinking a society that is filled with people that would murderer other if they were armed can be made safe. The best that society will ever be is a bunch of caged animals that would kill each other if given the opportunity. They wouldn't say it, but that is really what they think of most of us. We are all murderers at heart, so we can't be trusted with a gun.

Yes because relying on the police is always a good idea. Look up Warren v. District of Columbia, police DO NOT have an obligation to protect you. Police are there to serve the needs of the state. Not you.

Without the understanding as a community that if you attempt to hurt me there is the potential of lethal and immediate recourse without a doubt leads to higher crime rates especially violent crimes. A armed society is a polite society.

AB is a crazy SOB but he's 100% about this issue.

[SpinnerMan]

All you need to do is travel to Chicago, Illinois. It's gun-free.
You'll be shocked at how many guns there are in the gun-free zone.
Apparently there was a lot of shooting last weekend.

Chicago has concealed carry now just like the rest of the state.

The crime rate is not primarily the result of being gun free. It is ineffective law enforcement. If you saw your neighbor gun down another neighbor in the street, what would you do? Keep silent or do everything in your power to make sure the murderer was put in jail forever? Would your neighbor even gun down your neighbor over something so stupid as most shootings are?

Gun control or lack there of is a second order effect at best.

Think of the stereotypical wild west. Insult someone, even accidentally, an apology was not enough, a gun fight may well ensue. Everybody was well armed, but that didn't stop the violence. It was the lack of effective law enforcement, a society that would generally turn a blind eye, and a subculture that was quick to violence if their honor was insulted (dissed in the more modern ignorant language).

Gun control is a symptom and not the cause. Chicago is unwilling to do what it takes to stop crime so they take pointless and often counter productive measures like gun control. Somehow thinking a society that is filled with people that would murderer other if they were armed can be made safe. The best that society will ever be is a bunch of caged animals that would kill each other if given the opportunity. They wouldn't say it, but that is really what they think of most of us. We are all murderers at heart, so we can't be trusted with a gun.

Yes because relying on the police is always a good idea. Look up Warren v. District of Columbia, police DO NOT have an obligation to protect you. Police are there to serve the needs of the state. Not you.

Without the understanding as a community that if you attempt to hurt me there is the potential of lethal and immediate recourse without a doubt leads to higher crime rates especially violent crimes. A armed society is a polite society.

AB is a crazy SOB but he's 100% about this issue.

Did I use the word police ANYWHERE?

Law enforcement is far more than just the police. It is the entire system. The people are a HUGE part of that system. If the people turn a blind eye to murderers, the best you can hope for is the wild west. Lots of guns and lots of violence. If guns are so effective at deterring crimes, why is it so common for gang members to shoot at each other? They are pretty damn sure that the other side is armed and able and willing to retaliate with violence. Do legal guns have a magical power that illegal guns do not? Clearly if you shoot at another gang member, you already know there is a potential, almost a certainty, of lethal recourse. Yet, it happens. A lot.

The violent crime rate in Chicago is around 9 per 1,000 people. In Joliet, it averages around 3. In both it is far from uniform. You move over to Naperville and it is less than 1 per 1,000. This variation from way above 9 in the most violent neighborhoods in Chicago to far below 1 in the best neighborhoods in the state is not a result of more guns less crime. It is a result of how effective law enforcement is which is largely how tolerant the local community is of crime.

I'm not saying that the 9 in Chicago wouldn't go down a little. I'm sure it would, but it is extremely unlikely to reduce it to 8 and less than 1

Yes more law abiding gun owners is better. However, more law abiding citizens and less criminals is the answer. The criminals have to live in fear. Fear that any citizen knows they did it that they will be arrested and when arrested they will be removed from society for a long time if not forever. Effective law enforcement means the fear of getting caught has a major impact on behavior. And when it doesn't, effective law enforcement removes them from society and doesn't just kick them back on the street. The police can only arrest, if they get kicked back on the street over and over again, that is not effective law enforcement even if they arrest every criminal every time. They have to get removed from society to be effective.

[Olly]

Did I use the word police ANYWHERE?

No. But you know that opponents to civilians own guns always use the police having them as part of their ammo. So it's very relevant to the topic. You knew that but just wanted to debate.

I'm not really in the Internet debating mood these days.

[SpinnerMan]

Did I use the word police ANYWHERE?

No. But you know that opponents to civilians own guns always use the police having them as part of their ammo. So it's very relevant to the topic. You knew that but just wanted to debate.

I'm not really in the Internet debating mood these days.

I didn't want to debate. I wanted to point a common fallacy.

But yes those people are just as wrong as those that think the freedom to own guns legal as Chicagoans have had for years now will make a big dent in the problem.

Chicago is not gun free any more. Concealed carry has been statewide law for a couple years now and the Chicago laws were over turned by the Supreme Court some time before that.

The primary problem is cultural. It is a culture where too many people find murder acceptable and too few do anything about it.

Another major factor is education. There are a lot of adults that have 5th grade educations if they are lucky.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/illinois/districts/chicago-public-schools/robeson-high-school-6574/test-scores

Reading Proficiency Distribution

Reading proficiency is determined by student results on the school's Prairie State Achievement Examination.

Academic Warning 48%
Below Standard 49%
Meets the Standard 3%
Exceeds the Standard 0%

The arrest, release, repeat is a huge problem as well.

All these things are far, far more important than the idiotic gun laws that are a clear violation of the Constitution.

These problems are not just Chicago problems. They empower Democrats and that spreads this cultural cancer. We need to address this problem or we will suffer more and more. The answer is not better gun laws. That is just a marginal benefit.

We need to destroy these Chicago Democrats that allow schools like Robeson to exist that don't remove criminals from society but keep turning them out to victimize more people. Yes we should defend our Constitution, but it is not a panacea here. It's a benefit at the margin, but not even close to the root cause. Chicago is how it is because of these other problems. The stupid gun laws are just a symptom. We need to address the cause.