shotgun range question

What scatter guns are you using?

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shotgun range question

Postby don novicki » Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:46 am

Had a guy that was with me hunting, first timer goose hunting, and he tried to tell me that a shotguns pellets can travel 500 yards. I threw the BS flag but he continued on and on so I dropped it. I doubt that pellets could go 100 yards so what do you guys say?
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:22 am

The definitely travel well over 200 yards. Goose loads would probably still hurt you at 100 yards. I have killed snow geese at 60 yards and a Canada goose at a measured 55. So the pellets still have a lot of travel left before they lose all speed. My boat got shot at about 100 yards. I was chasing a cripple and the blind next to me had no idea I was there. The pellets plinked pretty hard off my aluminum boat. :o

I don't know how accurate this is. Seems a little far but not wildly more than my understanding under ideal conditions.

https://americangunfacts.com/how-far-does-bird-shot-travel/

Estimated Travel Distances of Birdshot
No. 9 birdshot: 700 feet
No.7.5 birdshot: 750 feet
No. 6 birdshot: 800 feet
No. 4 birdshot: 900 feet
No. 2 birdshot: 1,100 feet


Think of the furthest away you have had shot rain on you. It's a long ways for me.
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Ricky Spanish » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:12 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:The definitely travel well over 200 yards. Goose loads would probably still hurt you at 100 yards. I have killed snow geese at 60 yards and a Canada goose at a measured 55. So the pellets still have a lot of travel left before they lose all speed. My boat got shot at about 100 yards. I was chasing a cripple and the blind next to me had no idea I was there. The pellets plinked pretty hard off my aluminum boat. :o

I don't know how accurate this is. Seems a little far but not wildly more than my understanding under ideal conditions.

https://americangunfacts.com/how-far-does-bird-shot-travel/

Estimated Travel Distances of Birdshot
No. 9 birdshot: 700 feet
No.7.5 birdshot: 750 feet
No. 6 birdshot: 800 feet
No. 4 birdshot: 900 feet
No. 2 birdshot: 1,100 feet


Think of the furthest away you have had shot rain on you. It's a long ways for me.

Snow geese die easy.
I think I scared one to death. Dropped it from way the hell up there.
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Ricky Spanish » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:41 pm

Ok here's the maffs and the answer is stupid.
If you use 1500fps steel shot and shoot at 45 degree angle...
It takes a bit over 20 seconds for the pellet to return to earth assuming you're on level ground.
This means it can carry 3 miles.
No way that's right I must be forking up good.
20 seconds times the initial x Velocity.
Yeah you separate motion into components of x or y.
Initial x Velocity is 1500 cos 45.
Initial y Velocity is 1500 sin 45.
Solve for the y equation and apply to the x.
I must've really fucked up.
If it was a cannon ball this math is right.shotgun is not a cannon. 3 miles tho?
1674243591734232570271864311138.jpg

Not using metric sucks. I had to guess and remember G in English.
I "think" G = -32 feet per second squared. Grabbitty. :lol:
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Ricky Spanish » Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:46 pm

I'm calling this a bad question.
How far can I kill the stupid sucker from is the actual question.
Let's
Find
Out.
Go stand by that barn. :lol:

More on range. If you hear someone yell " hey you just shot me" you might be too close. :lol:
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:37 pm

You didn't include drag.

Your calculations are for shooting in a vacuum. We aren't talking about NASA astronauts shooting on the moon ;) You need account for the pellets slowing down because of wind resistance. What is the wind speed and is it a head wind or tail wind? How long does it take a pellet to go from 1500 fps to 0 fps? The drag coefficient, the ballistic coefficient which I don't understand that go into more complex equations that I don't understand.

Just be glad they aren't going so fast that you have to include relativistic effects. However, that I could actually explain.


Image

or written in the form that you are more familiar.

Image
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Ricky Spanish » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:48 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:You didn't include drag.

Your calculations are for shooting in a vacuum. We aren't talking about NASA astronauts shooting on the moon ;) You need account for the pellets slowing down because of wind resistance. What is the wind speed and is it a head wind or tail wind? How long does it take a pellet to go from 1500 fps to 0 fps? The drag coefficient, the ballistic coefficient which I don't understand that go into more complex equations that I don't understand.

Just be glad they aren't going so fast that you have to include relativistic effects. However, that I could actually explain.


Image

or written in the form that you are more familiar.

Image
I never got to the point of adding in drag.
My physics is baby-physics and it's true that it assumes you're shooting in a vacuum.
You have to start somewhere.
Maybe you can explain the subscripts.
I quit school you know?
Senior year I asked a prof for help.
He said, "you are an engineering student right?".
Slammed me so hard I quit going to his class and took no finals.
That's college suicide you know.
I dint gradiate...poor at grammer.
I really hate that ginger-head muh forking engineering teacher.
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Ricky Spanish » Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:56 pm

OK Ed...serious question.
Do you remember the day that you discovered that them equations with the crazy units ...
Kilograms times meters per second squared and it kept coming up over and over and then it hit you...
"Hey that's neutons"!
My favorite cookie!
F=ma?
No way Jose. :lol:

If I feel like I need some religion?
V=IR
Ohm
Ohm
Ohm...
:lol:


I bet you know the ideal gas law too you old stinker.
There is a double to this thread. It messed me up.
Can we delete one?
I'm assuming lag did it.
It happens
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:44 pm

Ricky Spanish wrote:I never got to the point of adding in drag.

Imagine throwing a whiffle ball and a base ball as hard as you can. Both will leave your hand at basically the exact same velocity. However, the whiffle ball will slow down much faster and therefore travel a much shorter distance. Accounting for drag is how you estimate both trajectories correctly.

The first equation is the mass of something as a function of its speed (v). Things get heavier the faster they move. c is the speed of light in a vaccuum.

m0 is the rest mass which is the mass of something if it is not moving. It's the amount of energy if it were annihilated and converted into photons which does happen for very very small things. PET (positron emission tomography) scans actually use this phenomenon. Anything bigger than an electron is pretty much safe from annihilation.

The E=mc2 is just the combination of rest mass energy and kinetic energy. And you should note that the m in that equation is not the rest mass, so it is a function of the speed of the particle and you have to calculate the mass using the first equation.

So the mass of our steel shot increases by around 0.00015% when it reaches 1500 fps when we fire it, so I think that we can safely ignore in our equation. The resistance of the air slowing down the shot on the other hand, we cannot.
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:02 pm

I don't remember the day I learned about newton's as a unit instead of a cookie, but I'm pretty sure it was in Mr. Tamecki's class in high school. His son was on my Little League team. At the beginning of our senior year physics. He gave us a problem and said if we solved it, we'd get an A for the year. I took it home and solved it and gave it back to him :mrgreen: I never asked and he never said a word about it, so I knew it was right and also that he couldn't give me an A for the year :lol: 7 years later when my youngest brother took his class, he told them only one student had ever solved this problem :thumbsup: I was a nerd, I really loved that shit.

I definitely know the ideal gas law off the top of my head. PV=nRT. I also know a fair bit about non-ideal gases such as our atmosphere. Most know of my nuclear education, but I also studied a lot of environmental engineering so I have a lot of useless knowledge on atmospheric physics. PV=nRT is just the starting point like your Newton's equations of motions are the foundation that requires correcting for things that don't behave as ideal gases or like they are in a vacuum.
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Anotherone » Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:33 pm

Now if we could just find a choke tube to control those little steel balls and we’d be cooking with gas.
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Ricky Spanish » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:30 am

SpinnerMan wrote:I don't remember the day I learned about newton's as a unit instead of a cookie, but I'm pretty sure it was in Mr. Tamecki's class in high school. His son was on my Little League team. At the beginning of our senior year physics. He gave us a problem and said if we solved it, we'd get an A for the year. I took it home and solved it and gave it back to him :mrgreen: I never asked and he never said a word about it, so I knew it was right and also that he couldn't give me an A for the year :lol: 7 years later when my youngest brother took his class, he told them only one student had ever solved this problem :thumbsup: I was a nerd, I really loved that shit.

I definitely know the ideal gas law off the top of my head. PV=nRT. I also know a fair bit about non-ideal gases such as our atmosphere. Most know of my nuclear education, but I also studied a lot of environmental engineering so I have a lot of useless knowledge on atmospheric physics. PV=nRT is just the starting point like your Newton's equations of motions are the foundation that requires correcting for things that don't behave as ideal gases or like they are in a vacuum.

Thermodynamics...
Bernouli and perve nert is your bread and butter.
Ever analyze a jet engine? You have and this should trigger a memory or two.
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Re: shotgun range question

Postby Ricky Spanish » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:33 am

To get on topic I'd stand 350 yards away and let you all shoot at me with my gun and my shells.
No self esteem at all.
Take your best shot
I routinely hunted in places where other parties could be as close as 100 yards or less.
I think most of the private land lease hunters here could never tolerate the crazy crap I do to kill a duck.
I've tried taking ppl and generally they get upset when they figure it out that we are stacked up on a refuge boundary. It's uhhhh different

Ever hunt on the line like that? South of the line and you're in violation. You can enter the refuge just not with a gun.
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