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Eric Haynes wrote:

Lostknife wrote:

28 ga Turkey load,



Duck and Goose 12 ga 2-3/4"
Lost

Lost, I guess I'm confused, maybe because I don't reload. 28 ga shells are tiny, yet there is 1 5/16oz of shot in it, and only 1oz in the 12 guage. What makes up all that space in the 12ga shell? Why not the 28 for ducks and geese also?

It's the density of the shot that makes up the weight.

A #7 TSS pellet weighs about 2x more than a #7 lead pellet. Since they are both the same size, you can fight a higher weight shot charge into the same space.

Tomkat wrote:Yep I have killed them with #5 highbrass.

You know the height of the brass means nothing anymore FYI

TSS weighs 18grams/cc

DeadEye_Dan wrote:

Eric Haynes wrote:

Lostknife wrote:

28 ga Turkey load,



Duck and Goose 12 ga 2-3/4"
Lost

Lost, I guess I'm confused, maybe because I don't reload. 28 ga shells are tiny, yet there is 1 5/16oz of shot in it, and only 1oz in the 12 guage. What makes up all that space in the 12ga shell? Why not the 28 for ducks and geese also?

It's the density of the shot that makes up the weight.

A #7 TSS pellet weighs about 2x more than a #7 lead pellet. Since they are both the same size, you can fight a higher weight shot charge into the same space.

I know.... where am i going wrong explaining i know physics pretty well. I'm asking what fills the void.

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Eric Haynes wrote:

DeadEye_Dan wrote:

Eric Haynes wrote:

Lostknife wrote:

28 ga Turkey load,



Duck and Goose 12 ga 2-3/4"
Lost

Lost, I guess I'm confused, maybe because I don't reload. 28 ga shells are tiny, yet there is 1 5/16oz of shot in it, and only 1oz in the 12 guage. What makes up all that space in the 12ga shell? Why not the 28 for ducks and geese also?

It's the density of the shot that makes up the weight.

A #7 TSS pellet weighs about 2x more than a #7 lead pellet. Since they are both the same size, you can fight a higher weight shot charge into the same space.

I know.... where am i going wrong explaining i know physics pretty well. I'm asking what fills the void.

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Felt ,fiber, or cork filler wads


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Eric TSS is so dense that it takes up very little space, even in the 28 so the extra space in the shotcup is filled with cork, card and felt wads, moreso in the 12 ga so that is the reason you don't need 3" or 3-1/2" hulls. for like of better performance The smaller size TSS compared to the STEEL shot gives better penetration and orders of magnitude better patterns at longer distances. I can post up some comparison charts if you would like.
Lost

Lostknife wrote:Eric TSS is so dense that it takes up very little space, even in the 28 so the extra space in the shotcup is filled with cork, card and felt wads, moreso in the 12 ga so that is the reason you don't need 3" or 3-1/2" hulls. for like of better performance The smaller size TSS compared to the STEEL shot gives better penetration and orders of magnitude better patterns at longer distances. I can post up some comparison charts if you would like.
Lost

Yes guys, i know. I was simply asking what made up the void. I also asked the point of the 12 ga load...seems like a waste of space when you could be shooting a smaller gun.

Also was wondering how much weight you could put in a shell before bad things happen.

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Eric the weight/shot size philosophy doesn't fit the TSS model. When we went from Lead to Steel shot with it's corresponding lighter density the tendency was to use larger pellets to make up for the loss of mass , conversely with TSS we are using a pellet with much larger mass so we go the other way ie to smaller size shot. This does two things: first for the same total shot mass loading we have on order of magnitude greater number of pellets and secondly we have increased the lethality range.
So instead of 1-3/8 ox of letter size Steel shot we have better ballistics, a far better pattern density with a lot smaller payload using TSS.
The 28 ga shotshell in my pic was for a test of a Turkey load @ 1-5/16 oz, and generally I will use 3/4 oz and 1 oz in 12 ga for Ducks and Geese, pellet counts are better by far than any Steel shot even with greater payloads.
TSS also, in my experience, is very easy on the teeth because it has sufficient power, at least in my game bag last fall, to penetrate the birds and keep right on going so there are not pellets to recover. I know there are two schools of thought about this retained/lost energy thing because of the energy being expended totally in the bird and the pellets retained or energy lost because the pellet has gone through but IMHO it's better to go through. Works for me!
As I stated earlier TSS isn't for everyone nor every situation. I will in the open marsh use 12ga with the first two shotshells being #3 steel and the last shell being TSS. In the 4Rivers layout on the lazy creek it's TSS all the way in the 28 ga. Upland is Lead but when those are used up it will be Steel for future loadings with a TSS for the third shot. It's great stuff but at US$49.00 per pound it is also expensive, for 1 oz loads that's 16 shells per pound!!!!!!!!!!!!
There has been some experimenting with duplex steel and TSS but I'm not so sure that the benefits outweigh the cost on those types of loadings even though some manufacturers are pushing them to boost sales if nothing else. For sub ga's TSS certainly shines but if your birds are in your face at 15-30 yards just about anything will kill them so why waste your money. Floating the lazy river or marsh in the 4Rivers especially with the 28 ga I will use TSS and the kill ratio so far has been 1.1 to 1. If you want to shoot a lot then go to the range, I prefer one shot per bird and will wait until I am sure of the shots and the distances.
Hope this helps,
Lost

The following chart shows the comparison of most shot types available and comparing them with TSS clearly the TSS is light years ahead.

Here's another one. If you have a favorite that you would like a comparison to TSS let me know and I'll crunch the numbers for you, Lost



Even starting out slower the TSS gets to the target faster because it doesn't slow down as quickly, there are just too many god things about it to dismiss it on the price factor alone. I find that I shoot a lot less, get more birds with one shot kills, a lot less noise and recoil, easy on the guns and me and generally enjoy the hunt a lot more.
Lost

Lol. I know exactly how the shot works. Am I coming across as not knowing? I know I asked about the heavy load and I know its not needed. I am just asking what the limit was.

Can you post some patterns of the smaller gauge shells?

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I'm not a turkey officienado but, I believe I've only ever taken one shot past 40yards and probably 90% of my shots have been at or less than 30yards.
In Oregon, you can't use a shot size smaller than #6 or a shotgun smaller than 20 gauge. So most of this high end stuff just doesn't pay dividends for me.
It's all good for discussion but, there really is no point to pay $3 for just the shot. It is interesting though.
If I had the money, time and equipment, I'd definately try it for waterfowl.
I pretty much hunt with Heavyshot #4 or #5 out of a 12gauge when it comes to turkey.

QH's Paw wrote:I'm not a turkey officienado but, I believe I've only ever taken one shot past 40yards and probably 90% of my shots have been at or less than 30yards.
In Oregon, you can't use a shot size smaller than #6 or a shotgun smaller than 20 gauge. So most of this high end stuff just doesn't pay dividends for me.
It's all good for discussion but, there really is no point to pay $3 for just the shot. It is interesting though.
If I had the money, time and equipment, I'd definately try it for waterfowl.
I pretty much hunt with Heavyshot #4 or #5 out of a 12gauge when it comes to turkey.

We have a restriction on anything bigger than 2 shot. This year I had to take 50+ yard shots on my birds. #5 lead worked fine but I think I was at the very end of my range.

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Eric Haynes wrote:

QH's Paw wrote:I'm not a turkey officienado but, I believe I've only ever taken one shot past 40yards and probably 90% of my shots have been at or less than 30yards.
In Oregon, you can't use a shot size smaller than #6 or a shotgun smaller than 20 gauge. So most of this high end stuff just doesn't pay dividends for me.
It's all good for discussion but, there really is no point to pay $3 for just the shot. It is interesting though.
If I had the money, time and equipment, I'd definately try it for waterfowl.
I pretty much hunt with Heavyshot #4 or #5 out of a 12gauge when it comes to turkey.

We have a restriction on anything bigger than 2 shot. This year I had to take 50+ yard shots on my birds. #5 lead worked fine but I think I was at the very end of my range.

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Yep, it's that way here too, nothing bigger than #2.
I think lead is fine at close range. I don't think it necessarily holds pattern as well as hard shot.

Same here. I had lead loads with 100% confidence at 35-40 yards, if wind was not an issue. After patterning both in windy situatio, there is no comparison. QH, I reload these for the same orice, if not less than factort hevi.

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jarbo03 wrote:Same here. I had lead loads with 100% confidence at 35-40 yards, if wind was not an issue. After patterning both in windy situatio, there is no comparison. QH, I reload these for the same orice, if not less than factort hevi.

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Hey Jarbo, how do you keep the cost less than $2 total shell cost if the shot alone is $3 an oz.? I'm assuming you're talking about TSS.

Any hevi I see is $20 minimum for a box of five. I load 15g shot, not the 18g tss.

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jarbo03 wrote:Any hevi I see is $20 minimum for a box of five. I load 15g shot, not the 18g tss.

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Indeed. For the price of Hevi-shot factory shells, you can load a far superior TSS load. I would want to go with #9 shot myself though...or smaller.

Since TSS is the highest density shot available it packs a big punch in a lot smaller pellet size than steel or any of the counterfeit hybrid Tungsten shot. Since the smaller pellets have such high density and are almost perfectly spherical they fly faster, lose less velocity due to wind resistance and drag than steel or the "others", over a much longer range.
Also since the shot is heavier and using much smaller pellets and using moderate velocity the pattern density is of course higher than Steel shot. So one can use smaller payloads and still have more energy, range and pattern density, higher retained velocity accompanied by less recoil, less noise, much easier on the guns and the people and get more birds with the second and third shots because there is less disturbance to the sight picture.
It costs presently US$49.00 per pound so using 1 oz loads that's 16 shells, 3/4 oz is 21.3 shells per pound. Sure it's expensive but these are "hunting" loads not "target or shooting" loads. I also have used, for close to 50 years now, Nosler partition bullets in my "hunting" ammo but use anything that's cheap for the "shooting" season.
The picture of the 1-5/16 TSS in the 28 was a trial loading for turkeys and since we don't have any turkeys around here that was the only hull loaded with that loading. There are a lot of felt, cork and fibre wads in TSS ammo because there is a lot of space to fill up and absolutely no need whatsoever for hulls of the 3" or 3-1/2" length. 3/4oz TSS from a 12 or 28 ga is better in all ways except cost than any other shot. It can be safely used in older guns because it is encased like all newer shot in a plastic shotcup but additionally it needs only moderate pressures to achieve and in most cases exceed the performance that the new crowd, who listen to those "marketing" types, think can only be obtained with letter size shot from a 3-1/2`gun at test pressures with the highest possible velocity !!!!! Rant is over LOL.
Lost

Since TSS is the highest density shot available it packs a big punch in a lot smaller pellet size than steel or any of the counterfeit hybrid Tungsten shot. Since the smaller pellets have such high density and are almost perfectly spherical they fly faster, lose less velocity due to wind resistance and drag than steel or the "others", over a much longer range.
Also since the shot is heavier and using much smaller pellets and using moderate velocity the pattern density is of course higher than Steel shot. So one can use smaller payloads and still have more energy, range and pattern density, higher retained velocity accompanied by less recoil, less noise, much easier on the guns and the people and get more birds with the second and third shots because there is less disturbance to the sight picture.
It costs presently US$49.00 per pound so using 1 oz loads that's 16 shells, 3/4 oz is 21.3 shells per pound. Sure it's expensive but these are "hunting" loads not "target or shooting" loads. I also have used, for close to 50 years now, Nosler partition bullets in my "hunting" ammo but use anything that's cheap for the "shooting" season.
The picture of the 1-5/16 TSS in the 28 was a trial loading for turkeys and since we don't have any turkeys around here that was the only hull loaded with that loading. There are a lot of felt, cork and fibre wads in TSS ammo because there is a lot of space to fill up and absolutely no need whatsoever for hulls of the 3" or 3-1/2" length. 3/4oz TSS from a 12 or 28 ga is better in all ways except cost than any other shot. It can be safely used in older guns because it is encased like all newer shot in a plastic shotcup but additionally it needs only moderate pressures to achieve and in most cases exceed the performance that the new crowd, who listen to those "marketing" types, think can only be obtained with letter size shot from a 3-1/2`gun at test pressures with the highest possible velocity !!!!! Rant is over LOL.
Lost

Eric Haynes wrote:Lol. I know exactly how the shot works. Am I coming across as not knowing? I know I asked about the heavy load and I know its not needed. I am just asking what the limit was.

Can you post some patterns of the smaller gauge shells?

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eric the TSS is denser that means less of it weighs more than many other metals

jehler wrote:

Eric Haynes wrote:Lol. I know exactly how the shot works. Am I coming across as not knowing? I know I asked about the heavy load and I know its not needed. I am just asking what the limit was.

Can you post some patterns of the smaller gauge shells?

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eric the TSS is denser that means less of it weighs more than many other metals

:lol::lol:

ERIC WANTS TO KNOW WHAT THE MAXIMUM PAYLOAD IN A SHOTGUN SHELL IS BEFORE ITS DANGEROUS (IN OUNCES)

3legged_lab wrote:

jehler wrote:

Eric Haynes wrote:Lol. I know exactly how the shot works. Am I coming across as not knowing? I know I asked about the heavy load and I know its not needed. I am just asking what the limit was.

Can you post some patterns of the smaller gauge shells?

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eric the TSS is denser that means less of it weighs more than many other metals

:lol::lol:

ERIC WANTS TO KNOW WHAT THE MAXIMUM PAYLOAD IN A SHOTGUN SHELL IS BEFORE ITS DANGEROUS (IN OUNCES)

tell him that it doesn't take up as much space in the hull so you have to uses spacers, it's density is higher than lead so it takes up less room

If it's density is HIGHER, why doesn't it take up MORE room?

assateague wrote:If it's density is HIGHER, why doesn't it take up MORE room?

ask Eric

assateague wrote:If it's density is HIGHER, why doesn't it take up MORE room?

The more dense, the higher the wieght of the same size pellet.

rebelp74 wrote:

assateague wrote:If it's density is HIGHER, why doesn't it take up MORE room?

The more dense, the higher the wieght of the same size pellet.

nope
Damn, you beat me with an edit

jehler wrote:

rebelp74 wrote:

assateague wrote:If it's density is HIGHER, why doesn't it take up MORE room?

The more dense, the higher the wieght of the same size pellet.

nope
Damn, you beat me with an edit

Yeah as soon as I put it in, I said wait that ain't right.

assateague wrote:If it's density is HIGHER, why doesn't it take up MORE room?

You are kidding right?

Assa, denser means more packed into the package. For example think of fishing sinkers. A 1/4 oz sinker, tIn/steel is bigger than lead and tungsten is smaller than lead even though they wiegh the same.