Poachers

Re: Poachers

Postby NuffDaddy » Fri May 02, 2014 11:01 am

Eric Haynes wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:Nope. I think there is a way to do it, but you need a bunch of permits and inspections. Then there are a bunch of regulations to keep diseases from spreading to wild animals.
You're barking up the wrong tree and I'm done arguing in circles about something I don't give a shit about.


Good, because you haven't even "argued" yet. To "argue", you state your position, and then support it. I'm not certain you've done the former, and I know you haven't done the latter.

We need enforced regulations because history has shown we can't do it on an individual basis.
Is that an argument then? Or is
"I should be able to do whatever the fuck I want on my property and the government should pay me for damage the animals do because it's tyranny if I can" a better argument.


I guess you really just can't comprehend what Jim is saying. Some people just don't get it.

It's because he isn't saying anything.
If you want animals to hunt, you need regulations...if you want regulations, you need enforcement.
Saying you want to be reimbursed for animal damage is just stupid. You have every right to put a 10' fence and netting over the top of your property to keep animals out.
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Re: Poachers

Postby assateague » Fri May 02, 2014 11:01 am

Or to sum it up in a simpler manner:

My argument is better because it's based on centuries of property rights evolution, constitutions (both state and federal), self-preservation, and economic reality, whereas yours is based on a Greenpeace public service announcement you saw on a Saturday morning.
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Re: Poachers

Postby assateague » Fri May 02, 2014 11:02 am

NuffDaddy wrote:It's because he isn't saying anything.
If you want animals to hunt, you need regulations...if you want regulations, you need enforcement.
Saying you want to be reimbursed for animal damage is just stupid. You have every right to put a 10' fence and netting over the top of your property to keep animals out.



How would they get that 10 foot fence to stay around airplanes when they're flying over the Hudson river, or around my Jeep when I'm driving down the road?
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Re: Poachers

Postby NuffDaddy » Fri May 02, 2014 11:04 am

So are you just ignoring the fact that before game regulations we basically eradicated most game species in America?
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Re: Poachers

Postby one2many » Fri May 02, 2014 11:04 am

NuffDaddy wrote:
Eric Haynes wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:Nope. I think there is a way to do it, but you need a bunch of permits and inspections. Then there are a bunch of regulations to keep diseases from spreading to wild animals.
You're barking up the wrong tree and I'm done arguing in circles about something I don't give a shit about.


Good, because you haven't even "argued" yet. To "argue", you state your position, and then support it. I'm not certain you've done the former, and I know you haven't done the latter.

We need enforced regulations because history has shown we can't do it on an individual basis.
Is that an argument then? Or is
"I should be able to do whatever the fuck I want on my property and the government should pay me for damage the animals do because it's tyranny if I can" a better argument.


I guess you really just can't comprehend what Jim is saying. Some people just don't get it.

It's because he isn't saying anything.
If you want animals to hunt, you need regulations...if you want regulations, you need enforcement.
Saying you want to be reimbursed for animal damage is just stupid. You have every right to put a 10' fence and netting over the top of your property to keep animals out.

i will pay fro half of the high fence if you pay the other half.until then im a deer's worse nightmare allegedly
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Re: Poachers

Postby Woody » Fri May 02, 2014 11:07 am

assateague wrote:
Woody wrote:
DeadEye_Dan wrote:Option 3.

Reduce the number of animals doing damage....but that hurts their license revenue.


How do you reduce the population responsibly?


The state has no responsibility to the wildlife, they have a responsibility to the citizens.

What tangible benefit is there to having the numbers we do now? Aside from generating revenue for the state, I can think of none. Before anyone puts out the "it's for everyone to enjoy" argument, I'll list these tangible drawbacks:

Wildlife causes damage. That's real money, from real people's pockets. Quite tangible.


Why SHOULDN'T the federal government get a bill from US Airways for their geese crashing a plane? Are the lives of 200 people not "tangible", but "enjoying wildlife" is? There is no excuse for the lack of responsibility, and government in general has got quite good at avoiding it.

-A building inspector controls what and how you build something, but if they screw up and miss something, and your house burns down in an electrical fire because of it, they have no responsibility.

-The FDA controls what drugs the pharma companies may bring to market, but if they screw up and people die, the FDA has no responsibility for it.

-The state controls what and how you may hunt, but if the wildlife damages something, they have no responsibility for it.


The whole idea is repulsive to me. I'm not advocating anarchy, and if you bothered to read what I said, you would see that that is true. I am advocating for either taking responsibility, or abrogating control. You cannot have one without the other. Right now, they have no skin in the game. Their decisions on wildlife and population numbers have ZERO consequences for them, and I'm tired of government being the only ones who don't suffer consequences. You said they couldn't afford to pay damages if they assumed responsibility- fine. Then I bet that rather quickly they would figure out a way to manage the wildlife which wouldn't cause so much damage.


I'll just speak to this area, and my particular experience. Deer cause an insane amount of damage. That is why I get crop damage tags. The state official who issues these comes out every two years to assess the crop damage done, and that is how they determine the number of damage tags. However, the amount is capped by the state, I believe at 30. And I'm not allowed to shoot bucks. Why? Do bucks not eat beans? I could care less what I shoot, but when I watch a bachelor group of 15 bucks browsing through a corn field, it's pretty damn stupid that they get a free pass.

An acre of corn averages about 155 bushels an acre on the farms I hunt. Last year, when the damage assessment was done, he averaged out a 14% loss due to wildlife (yes, that includes geese eating wheat, but good luck getting rid of those) Fields are small here, and the guy who farms this land has a total of a little over 440 acres to tend. A bag of corn seed is $300, and will seed around 3 acres. So that's $44,000 in seed alone. We won't even get into fertilizer, chemical, fuel, and time. 14% of $44,000 is $6160 worth of seed which will not produce anything, but which has to be paid for, anyway. Then factor in the lost revenue- 61 acres eaten, which will grow no corn. At an average of 155 bushels per acre, at an estimate of $5 a bushel, that's $47,000. Now add the $6,000 worth of seed, and you get a total of $53,000 lost to deer, and that's just one farmer. Don't tell me there's no real loss due to wildlife.

What is the state's responsibility to him? Their decisions cost him almost $60,000 a year. But yet I have to hear about how wildlife is held "for the good of all". Bullshit.


Okay, I agree with all of that... the government should be held accountable for that which they wish to control. I am just telling you that, that means more taxes out of your pocket and in the end you will pay for it anyways.
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Re: Poachers

Postby NuffDaddy » Fri May 02, 2014 11:08 am

This world would be much better off if we just killed all the animals and we could live a peaceful life in a land of cement.
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Re: Poachers

Postby assateague » Fri May 02, 2014 11:14 am

NuffDaddy wrote:So are you just ignoring the fact that before game regulations we basically eradicated most game species in America?


I'm ignoring no such thing. Nor have I ever argued for a lack of game regulations. What I HAVE argued for is an acceptance of responsibility, in exchange for those regulations. If there is no responsibility, then there should be no control. Period.

But for the sake of argument, what is the tangible benefit for them NOT being eradicated? Are we better off with wolves or without? Why is your desire to hunt more important than a farmer's desire to not take an economic beating? Why is your desire to have game to pursue more important than the desire of a driver to have cheaper insurance? Why is your desire to have wildlife in abundance more important than a passenger's desire for their plane to NOT crash into the Rocky Mountains because they hit a goose?




I'm amazed at how many people can't critically think. We're raising a generation of dumbasses. See how that works?
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Re: Poachers

Postby one2many » Fri May 02, 2014 11:14 am

NuffDaddy wrote:This world would be much better off if we just killed all the animals and we could live a peaceful life in a land of cement.

cement? holy shit that would cost an arm and a leg
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Re: Poachers

Postby one2many » Fri May 02, 2014 11:16 am

assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:So are you just ignoring the fact that before game regulations we basically eradicated most game species in America?


I'm ignoring no such thing. Nor have I ever argued for a lack of game regulations. What I HAVE argued for is an acceptance of responsibility, in exchange for those regulations. If there is no responsibility, then there should be no control. Period.

But for the sake of argument, what is the tangible benefit for them NOT being eradicated? Are we better off with wolves or without? Why is your desire to hunt more important than a farmer's desire to not take an economic beating? Why is your desire to have game to pursue more important than the desire of a driver to have cheaper insurance? Why is your desire to have wildlife in abundance more important than a passenger's desire for their plane to NOT crash into the Rocky Mountains because they hit a goose?




I'm amazed at how many people can't critically think. We're raising a generation of dumbasses. See how that works?

wolves are an evil that should be killed at every opportunity
No helicopter looking for a murder
Two in the mornin got the Fatburger
Even saw the lights of the Goodyear Blimp
And it read, "Jeffys a pimp"
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Re: Poachers

Postby Eric Haynes » Fri May 02, 2014 11:27 am

one2many wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:So are you just ignoring the fact that before game regulations we basically eradicated most game species in America?


I'm ignoring no such thing. Nor have I ever argued for a lack of game regulations. What I HAVE argued for is an acceptance of responsibility, in exchange for those regulations. If there is no responsibility, then there should be no control. Period.

But for the sake of argument, what is the tangible benefit for them NOT being eradicated? Are we better off with wolves or without? Why is your desire to hunt more important than a farmer's desire to not take an economic beating? Why is your desire to have game to pursue more important than the desire of a driver to have cheaper insurance? Why is your desire to have wildlife in abundance more important than a passenger's desire for their plane to NOT crash into the Rocky Mountains because they hit a goose?




I'm amazed at how many people can't critically think. We're raising a generation of dumbasses. See how that works?

wolves are an evil that should be killed at every opportunity


Buff thinks they are beautiful.
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Re: Poachers

Postby Eric Haynes » Fri May 02, 2014 11:29 am

Nuff *
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant, "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the rule of honor.
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Re: Poachers

Postby one2many » Fri May 02, 2014 11:48 am

Eric Haynes wrote:Nuff *

i think they are nice looking too























as a rug
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Even saw the lights of the Goodyear Blimp
And it read, "Jeffys a pimp"
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Re: Poachers

Postby Eric Haynes » Fri May 02, 2014 11:55 am

one2many wrote:
Eric Haynes wrote:Nuff *

i think they are nice looking too























as a rug


Big meanie :lol::lol:
Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant, "If I live, I will kill you. If I die, you are forgiven." Such is the rule of honor.
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Re: Poachers

Postby rebelp74 » Fri May 02, 2014 12:53 pm

Woody wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:I don't see it as the governments animals. They are yours, mine, and everyone else's.
But we've shown in the past we can't be trusted to manage those animals without enforced regulations.



They are not mine. They are the state's. Pretty sure I've demonstrated that at least 3 times, in this thread alone.

If I have to pay the state to hunt them, why should the state not have to pay me when they damage my property? They are limiting my ability to protect my own property, and then claiming "not our problem" when something is damaged. You still haven't even tried to tap dance around that question, much less tried to answer it. You've simply posted the equivalent of stamping your feet with your fingers in your ears, muttering "la la la, I can't hear you because I don't want to".

government of the people, by the people, for the people

Not true, it's currently a government of the big cities and elite class. It hasn't been a government of the people, etc, etc for a while. The only way it'll go back to of the people, etc, etc is when we take it back. Until then we're all pawns and supporting it with the outrageous taxes being forced upon us. Quit being so naive.
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Re: Poachers

Postby Tomkat » Fri May 02, 2014 1:04 pm

one2many wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:So are you just ignoring the fact that before game regulations we basically eradicated most game species in America?


I'm ignoring no such thing. Nor have I ever argued for a lack of game regulations. What I HAVE argued for is an acceptance of responsibility, in exchange for those regulations. If there is no responsibility, then there should be no control. Period.

But for the sake of argument, what is the tangible benefit for them NOT being eradicated? Are we better off with wolves or without? Why is your desire to hunt more important than a farmer's desire to not take an economic beating? Why is your desire to have game to pursue more important than the desire of a driver to have cheaper insurance? Why is your desire to have wildlife in abundance more important than a passenger's desire for their plane to NOT crash into the Rocky Mountains because they hit a goose?




I'm amazed at how many people can't critically think. We're raising a generation of dumbasses. See how that works?

wolves are an evil that should be killed at every opportunity


Our grandparents knew this to be true.
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Re: Poachers

Postby Tomkat » Fri May 02, 2014 1:07 pm

rebelp74 wrote:
Woody wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:I don't see it as the governments animals. They are yours, mine, and everyone else's.
But we've shown in the past we can't be trusted to manage those animals without enforced regulations.



They are not mine. They are the state's. Pretty sure I've demonstrated that at least 3 times, in this thread alone.

If I have to pay the state to hunt them, why should the state not have to pay me when they damage my property? They are limiting my ability to protect my own property, and then claiming "not our problem" when something is damaged. You still haven't even tried to tap dance around that question, much less tried to answer it. You've simply posted the equivalent of stamping your feet with your fingers in your ears, muttering "la la la, I can't hear you because I don't want to".

government of the people, by the people, for the people

Not true, it's currently a government of the big cities and elite class. It hasn't been a government of the people, etc, etc for a while. The only way it'll go back to of the people, etc, etc is when we take it back. Until then we're all pawns and supporting it with the outrageous taxes being forced upon us. Quit being so naive.
It will never happen. We have two generations of brain washed pussies in place now. The sheep are very well trained, the media and the school system have done a great brainwashing job. OBEY. Get along. Its ok. Be fair. Everybody wins!!
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Re: Poachers

Postby Woody » Fri May 02, 2014 1:42 pm

rebelp74 wrote:
Woody wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:I don't see it as the governments animals. They are yours, mine, and everyone else's.
But we've shown in the past we can't be trusted to manage those animals without enforced regulations.



They are not mine. They are the state's. Pretty sure I've demonstrated that at least 3 times, in this thread alone.

If I have to pay the state to hunt them, why should the state not have to pay me when they damage my property? They are limiting my ability to protect my own property, and then claiming "not our problem" when something is damaged. You still haven't even tried to tap dance around that question, much less tried to answer it. You've simply posted the equivalent of stamping your feet with your fingers in your ears, muttering "la la la, I can't hear you because I don't want to".

government of the people, by the people, for the people

Not true, it's currently a government of the big cities and elite class. It hasn't been a government of the people, etc, etc for a while. The only way it'll go back to of the people, etc, etc is when we take it back. Until then we're all pawns and supporting it with the outrageous taxes being forced upon us. Quit being so naive.


Do you really think I am that naive?
That was the exact argument Assa made when he said he is ashamed of the population not Obama...
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Re: Poachers

Postby Woody » Fri May 02, 2014 1:43 pm

assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:So are you just ignoring the fact that before game regulations we basically eradicated most game species in America?


I'm ignoring no such thing. Nor have I ever argued for a lack of game regulations. What I HAVE argued for is an acceptance of responsibility, in exchange for those regulations. If there is no responsibility, then there should be no control. Period.

But for the sake of argument, what is the tangible benefit for them NOT being eradicated? Are we better off with wolves or without? Why is your desire to hunt more important than a farmer's desire to not take an economic beating? Why is your desire to have game to pursue more important than the desire of a driver to have cheaper insurance? Why is your desire to have wildlife in abundance more important than a passenger's desire for their plane to NOT crash into the Rocky Mountains because they hit a goose?




I'm amazed at how many people can't critically think. We're raising a generation of dumbasses. See how that works?


I'll argue with you on that premise...

The ecosystem is all intertwined... you kill the wolves... deer over populate and die out... grass over populates... bugs thrive... disease thrives... humans die....
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Re: Poachers

Postby assateague » Fri May 02, 2014 1:49 pm

No they don't. Why weren't we at all threatened, then, in those days before regulation?
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Re: Poachers

Postby one2many » Fri May 02, 2014 1:53 pm

Woody wrote:
assateague wrote:
NuffDaddy wrote:So are you just ignoring the fact that before game regulations we basically eradicated most game species in America?


I'm ignoring no such thing. Nor have I ever argued for a lack of game regulations. What I HAVE argued for is an acceptance of responsibility, in exchange for those regulations. If there is no responsibility, then there should be no control. Period.

But for the sake of argument, what is the tangible benefit for them NOT being eradicated? Are we better off with wolves or without? Why is your desire to hunt more important than a farmer's desire to not take an economic beating? Why is your desire to have game to pursue more important than the desire of a driver to have cheaper insurance? Why is your desire to have wildlife in abundance more important than a passenger's desire for their plane to NOT crash into the Rocky Mountains because they hit a goose?




I'm amazed at how many people can't critically think. We're raising a generation of dumbasses. See how that works?


I'll argue with you on that premise...

The ecosystem is all intertwined... you kill the wolves... deer over populate and die out... grass over populates... bugs thrive... disease thrives... humans die....

assa keeps the deer heard around him in check no need for cock sucking wolves. i will keep the "grass population" in check with livestock and Agent Orange
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Re: Poachers

Postby Woody » Fri May 02, 2014 2:27 pm

assateague wrote:No they don't. Why weren't we at all threatened, then, in those days before regulation?


If you kill off one part of the food chain the whole thing gets out of wack for at least some period of time.
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Re: Poachers

Postby assateague » Fri May 02, 2014 2:35 pm

I dispute that as well. "Out of whack" is a pretty broad term, and I've never read about any problems resulting from the extinction of the dodo bird or passenger pigeon. Perhaps if it'g a big enough, quick enough eradication. But even then, I just don't see it. Let's say that tomorrow all the geese were gone. What would the traumatic result to humans be? Serious question.
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Re: Poachers

Postby NuffDaddy » Fri May 02, 2014 2:45 pm

assateague wrote:I dispute that as well.

Shocker
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Re: Poachers

Postby one2many » Fri May 02, 2014 2:45 pm

assateague wrote:I dispute that as well. "Out of whack" is a pretty broad term, and I've never read about any problems resulting from the extinction of the dodo bird or passenger pigeon. Perhaps if it'g a big enough, quick enough eradication. But even then, I just don't see it. Let's say that tomorrow all the geese were gone. What would the traumatic result to humans be? Serious question.

not having to wipe goose shit from the putting surface...i would also have to buy more commercial dog food :evil:
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Re: Poachers

Postby assateague » Fri May 02, 2014 2:46 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Poachers

Postby rebelp74 » Fri May 02, 2014 2:48 pm

NuffDaddy wrote:
assateague wrote:I dispute that as well.

Shocker

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Poachers

Postby Woody » Fri May 02, 2014 3:14 pm

assateague wrote:I dispute that as well. "Out of whack" is a pretty broad term, and I've never read about any problems resulting from the extinction of the dodo bird or passenger pigeon. Perhaps if it'g a big enough, quick enough eradication. But even then, I just don't see it. Let's say that tomorrow all the geese were gone. What would the traumatic result to humans be? Serious question.

Okay, if you are going to pick and choose which animal we are eliminating, I will too.
Bats, frogs, salmon, lizards, and all song birds. Now what happens?
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Re: Poachers

Postby rebelp74 » Fri May 02, 2014 3:18 pm

Woody wrote:
assateague wrote:I dispute that as well. "Out of whack" is a pretty broad term, and I've never read about any problems resulting from the extinction of the dodo bird or passenger pigeon. Perhaps if it'g a big enough, quick enough eradication. But even then, I just don't see it. Let's say that tomorrow all the geese were gone. What would the traumatic result to humans be? Serious question.

Okay, if you are going to pick and choose which animal we are eliminating, I will too.
Bats, frogs, salmon, lizards, and all song birds. Now what happens?

Those aren't hunted. Except bullfrogs which only count for a very small portion of frogs.
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Re: Poachers

Postby assateague » Fri May 02, 2014 3:51 pm

What Reb said.
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