IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

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IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby assateague » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:40 pm

Federal ATF officers search new Bakersfield armory and home

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. - The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives searched a business and Bakersfield home Friday.

EP Armory is owned by Chris Cook. The business opened a storefront March 1 on District Boulevard near Gosford Road.

The store was closed today while agents searched it.

A home belonging to Chris Cook on Holabird Avenue was also searched.

"Obviously when somebody is going through all of your personal things it's pretty unnerving," said EP Armory owner Chris Cook.

The ATF was not able to provide information on the on-going investigation. Grahm Barlowe with the ATF declined to comment on why the store was targeted or exactly what agents were looking for.

Cook said agents told him they were looking for illegal firearms.

The ATF did not prohibit EP Armory from reopening and they did so around 5:30 p.m. Friday.





But it goes further than that. They're demanding customer records.


California-based gun company Ares Armor is currently fending off efforts from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to seize not only their 80 percent AR lowers but also the names of 5,000 customers who bought them.

The company has filed a restraining order against a pending ATF raid on the company, which, according to Dimitrios Karras, CEO of Ares Armor, was communicated to him through his lawyer on March 10.

“I was advised that the BATFE had offered to forego obtaining a warrant if Ares Armor was willing to: (a) Hand over all of EP Armory’s 80 percent Lowers, (b) Turn over Ares Armor customer’s private information to the BATFE,” said Karras in a statement.

“In exchange for turning over our customer’s private information, the BATFE said that they would not ‘raid Ares Armor’s facilities and would not pursue ‘criminal’ charges. This made me feel as if I was being extorted,” said Karras.

At the heart of the matter is a series of polymer AR-style 80 percent lowers that Ares had purchased from EP Armory and was reselling. The ATF has argued, based on a determination letter, that the lower is a regulated firearm and not a gun part.

According to Karras, the ATF has incorrectly classified the EP Armory product as a firearm based on faulty information and contends that it is no different from others he has sold in the past. Bakersfield-based EP Armory itself, as well as the home of its owner Chris Cook, was the target of an ATF raid on March 7.

“It seems like ATF is taking the view that the lowers are legally a ‘firearm’ under the Gun Control Act because the can be ‘readily converted’ to a ‘firearm’ So in ATF’s mind they are transferring a ‘firearm” without a NICS check,’ a firearms industry explained to Guns.com Thursday on condition of anonymity.

“While people speak of it, there is no ’80% rule’ The problem is ATF cannot give any meaningful guidance as to when a piece of metal is just a piece of metal and when it is a ‘receiver’ (a ‘firearm’). In part this is because the case law interpreting ‘readily convertible’ is all over the map, up to and including access to a machine shop for a week,” the expert elaborated.

Karras has obtained a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) from a federal district judge in this matter and is vowing not to turn over any names to the ATF.

“The BATFE has expressed interest in obtaining Ares Armor’s customer list in the past and is now attempting to strong-arm us with undue threats based on information they know to be incorrect. Our customer’s privacy is of the utmost importance to us. I cannot in good moral conscience turn over a list of names to the BATFE just because they unduly threaten us with an unjust raid based on information they know to be false,” Karras wrote on his company’s website.

Ares, a veteran-owned small business in National City, California, is no stranger to controversy, having recently fended off assaults by the city over its rooftop sign. The sign, with an image of an AR-15, has the words “Unserialized. No Registration. Legal.” across the bottom.

As of Thursday the company is still listing several 80 percent lowers for sale on their site, with the exception of the polymer EP lowers.

The ATF advised Guns.com they do not comment on ongoing investigations.

Both Ares and the ATF are set to face off in court on March 20 for a preliminary injunction hearing. Until then, Karras states that, “I am now in constant fear for the safety of my employees, my customers and myself.”



I guess I won't be able to make one now. Sucks that I ran the drill right through the side of mine. Oh well.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Olly » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:43 pm

Kind of BS. According to their logic a rectangular piece of aluminum block is also a weapon because it has the potential to be an lower receiver.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby assateague » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:47 pm

Of they want to make that determination going forward, more power to them, I guess. But making something retroactive like that is bullshit.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Olly » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:50 pm

They need to draw the line somewhere and I thought that was at the 80% mark.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby aunt betty » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:51 pm

Olly wrote:Kind of BS. According to their logic a rectangular piece of aluminum block is also a weapon because it has the potential to be an lower receiver.

It's called a billet.
I've heard that it's incredibly stupid to fuck around with a crazy man's head.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby vincentpa » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:56 pm

from E P Facebook page:


Patriots.

We have as you all know had ATF interaction over the EP80 and the sales thereof. We have been in constant contact with our legal team and have made it extremely apparent that our customers and their privacy are our TOP priority as well as the legality of the sales and manufacturing of our product. Please understand that we are NOT handing any information of any of our customers on an at will basis nor will we. We have had our computers confiscated as I am sure you all have read in the many articles posted all over the internet. We did NOT at any time give them a customer list.

We were served with a search warrant that did not specifically request any of our customers information. We take multiple steps to safeguard your privacy. Therefore we did not give access to any such documents/records/information. Our distributor ARES, located in Oceanside, had a demand in their search warrant for a customer list and was able to apply a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) in defense. Ares was alerted, and at an advantage due to our circumstances, which was not given to us. Ares and E P Armory are firm believers in our rights as Americans and ensure to uphold them.

Going forward:

Currently all sales and manufacturing of the EP80 have been put on hold until the BATFE can revisit the most recent determination which was on an understanding that the EP80 was manufactured in a way that would not comply with federal GCA (GUN CONTROL ACT) law. We have already previously resent and replied explaining the manufacturing process with no feedback other than a large group of agents entering the premises and confiscating our product and our means to manufacture it, until given further notice.

We feel very confident that litigation from our attorneys will remove the misconception released by the BATFE and will in turn release E P Armory from any charges that could lay ourselves in a criminal court from this.

E P Armory, and all of our employees thank each and every one of our customers and future customers of the support we have received over this whole ordeal.

- Chris Cook
Owner CEO

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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Redbeard » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:38 pm

assateague wrote:
Federal ATF officers search new Bakersfield armory and home

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. - The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives searched a business and Bakersfield home Friday.

EP Armory is owned by Chris Cook. The business opened a storefront March 1 on District Boulevard near Gosford Road.

The store was closed today while agents searched it.

A home belonging to Chris Cook on Holabird Avenue was also searched.

"Obviously when somebody is going through all of your personal things it's pretty unnerving," said EP Armory owner Chris Cook.

The ATF was not able to provide information on the on-going investigation. Grahm Barlowe with the ATF declined to comment on why the store was targeted or exactly what agents were looking for.

Cook said agents told him they were looking for illegal firearms.

The ATF did not prohibit EP Armory from reopening and they did so around 5:30 p.m. Friday.





But it goes further than that. They're demanding customer records.


California-based gun company Ares Armor is currently fending off efforts from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to seize not only their 80 percent AR lowers but also the names of 5,000 customers who bought them.

The company has filed a restraining order against a pending ATF raid on the company, which, according to Dimitrios Karras, CEO of Ares Armor, was communicated to him through his lawyer on March 10.

“I was advised that the BATFE had offered to forego obtaining a warrant if Ares Armor was willing to: (a) Hand over all of EP Armory’s 80 percent Lowers, (b) Turn over Ares Armor customer’s private information to the BATFE,” said Karras in a statement.

“In exchange for turning over our customer’s private information, the BATFE said that they would not ‘raid Ares Armor’s facilities and would not pursue ‘criminal’ charges. This made me feel as if I was being extorted,” said Karras.

At the heart of the matter is a series of polymer AR-style 80 percent lowers that Ares had purchased from EP Armory and was reselling. The ATF has argued, based on a determination letter, that the lower is a regulated firearm and not a gun part.

According to Karras, the ATF has incorrectly classified the EP Armory product as a firearm based on faulty information and contends that it is no different from others he has sold in the past. Bakersfield-based EP Armory itself, as well as the home of its owner Chris Cook, was the target of an ATF raid on March 7.

“It seems like ATF is taking the view that the lowers are legally a ‘firearm’ under the Gun Control Act because the can be ‘readily converted’ to a ‘firearm’ So in ATF’s mind they are transferring a ‘firearm” without a NICS check,’ a firearms industry explained to Guns.com Thursday on condition of anonymity.

“While people speak of it, there is no ’80% rule’ The problem is ATF cannot give any meaningful guidance as to when a piece of metal is just a piece of metal and when it is a ‘receiver’ (a ‘firearm’). In part this is because the case law interpreting ‘readily convertible’ is all over the map, up to and including access to a machine shop for a week,” the expert elaborated.

Karras has obtained a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) from a federal district judge in this matter and is vowing not to turn over any names to the ATF.

“The BATFE has expressed interest in obtaining Ares Armor’s customer list in the past and is now attempting to strong-arm us with undue threats based on information they know to be incorrect. Our customer’s privacy is of the utmost importance to us. I cannot in good moral conscience turn over a list of names to the BATFE just because they unduly threaten us with an unjust raid based on information they know to be false,” Karras wrote on his company’s website.

Ares, a veteran-owned small business in National City, California, is no stranger to controversy, having recently fended off assaults by the city over its rooftop sign. The sign, with an image of an AR-15, has the words “Unserialized. No Registration. Legal.” across the bottom.

As of Thursday the company is still listing several 80 percent lowers for sale on their site, with the exception of the polymer EP lowers.

The ATF advised Guns.com they do not comment on ongoing investigations.

Both Ares and the ATF are set to face off in court on March 20 for a preliminary injunction hearing. Until then, Karras states that, “I am now in constant fear for the safety of my employees, my customers and myself.”



I guess I won't be able to make one now. Sucks that I ran the drill right through the side of mine. Oh well.
Wow. Bakersfield's my home town. Born and raised there. Too bad. Very conservative county and city
gila-river wrote:Great, now the cops want to install dishwashers to. Just do your job Red and stop encroaching on our rights to replace appliances. That is not the responsibility of police.:lol:
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby gila-river » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:15 pm

I lived in Cuyama just outside Bakersfield for a year setting up a new farm. I went into Bakersfield for shotgun shells and .17 ammo. The place had good prices and I expressed interest in getting residency and maybe buying a new gun while I was over there. The old guy behind the counter asked where I was from and I told him AZ. He was almost irritated with me when I told him that. He said I'd be a damned fool and to keep my AZ license and just go home to buy firearms related stuff.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby 3legged_lab » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:17 pm

assateague wrote:Of they want to make that determination going forward, more power to them, I guess. But making something retroactive like that is bullshit.

Yeah, too bad I fucked mine up while trying to finish it.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby capt1972 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:18 pm

3legged_lab wrote:
assateague wrote:Of they want to make that determination going forward, more power to them, I guess. But making something retroactive like that is bullshit.

Yeah, too bad I fucked mine up while trying to finish it.

you, me, Assa, what a bunch of amateurs! what a waste of money.

makes a cool paper weight though.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby assateague » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:19 pm

I know. It's harder than it looks.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby capt1972 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:20 pm

assateague wrote:I know. It's harder than it looks.

TWSS
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Redbeard » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:20 pm

gila-river wrote:I lived in Cuyama just outside Bakersfield for a year setting up a new farm. I went into Bakersfield for shotgun shells and .17 ammo. The place had good prices and I expressed interest in getting residency and maybe buying a new gun while I was over there. The old guy behind the counter asked where I was from and I told him AZ. He was almost irritated with me when I told him that. He said I'd be a damned fool and to keep my AZ license and just go home to buy firearms related stuff.
loved that cuyama valley. Hunted a lotta quail in there
gila-river wrote:Great, now the cops want to install dishwashers to. Just do your job Red and stop encroaching on our rights to replace appliances. That is not the responsibility of police.:lol:
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby gila-river » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:23 pm

Redbeard wrote:
gila-river wrote:I lived in Cuyama just outside Bakersfield for a year setting up a new farm. I went into Bakersfield for shotgun shells and .17 ammo. The place had good prices and I expressed interest in getting residency and maybe buying a new gun while I was over there. The old guy behind the counter asked where I was from and I told him AZ. He was almost irritated with me when I told him that. He said I'd be a damned fool and to keep my AZ license and just go home to buy firearms related stuff.
loved that cuyama valley. Hunted a lotta quail in there


It was a really cool place and I met some great people out there. I might have stayed permanently if I wanted to live in CA. Do you remember a big horse racing track and training facility on the south side of the 166 a couple miles east of the buckhorn?
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby vincentpa » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:24 pm

Not sure that's the way it will work. If EP sold a firearm illegally, they would be guilty of transferring a firearm without an FFL, which is illegal. The buyer could also be guilty of a crime of buying a firearm illegally. I think they might want the customer list to possibly charge the buyers as well. It doesn't matter if you screwed up the build. They will consider it a firearm from the sale.

EP said they had a letter from the ATF on their website. They even posted something. I'm not sure if that will help any. Probably not. It appears EP mislead its customers. I don't think that will help either.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby aunt betty » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:40 pm

Its about "control". Our gubment is losing it and can't tolerate that. They will change laws, enforce them retroactively, and make up the rules as they go.
Its what they do...lawmakers.
They should be called criminal makers. Its closer to the truth.
I've heard that it's incredibly stupid to fuck around with a crazy man's head.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby 3legged_lab » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:48 pm

assateague wrote:I know. It's harder than it looks.

I returned mine.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby aunt betty » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:51 pm

I'd like to welcome any of you guys who bought illegal firearms to my poacher group.
I'm sorry guys. This has me kinda upset that you could be legal one day and a possible felon the next.
I've heard that it's incredibly stupid to fuck around with a crazy man's head.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby vincentpa » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:04 pm

I know a guy who bought one of their 80% lowers. He tells me the EP guys are great guys, super nice and helpful. He milled one of the 80 lowers out and upon assembling the bolt catch, the plunger and spring got stuck because the hole was out of spec. They sent him a new lower free of charge. They did it without blinking.

He spoke to them a few minutes ago. They said not to worry. They stated everything was legal. He assured my friend that the ATF would be kicking his door down. He also said, if it made him feel better, he could destroy it. My friend gave his complete support to the guys at EP and said he'd be pulling for them. The EP guys told my friend to watch the FB page for communication. They will let everyone know the situation from there.

I heard on the news clip that the ATF and EP had a court date on 3/20. Keep and eye out.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Redbeard » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:17 pm

gila-river wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
gila-river wrote:I lived in Cuyama just outside Bakersfield for a year setting up a new farm. I went into Bakersfield for shotgun shells and .17 ammo. The place had good prices and I expressed interest in getting residency and maybe buying a new gun while I was over there. The old guy behind the counter asked where I was from and I told him AZ. He was almost irritated with me when I told him that. He said I'd be a damned fool and to keep my AZ license and just go home to buy firearms related stuff.
loved that cuyama valley. Hunted a lotta quail in there


It was a really cool place and I met some great people out there. I might have stayed permanently if I wanted to live in CA. Do you remember a big horse racing track and training facility on the south side of the 166 a couple miles east of the buckhorn?
i remember it well
gila-river wrote:Great, now the cops want to install dishwashers to. Just do your job Red and stop encroaching on our rights to replace appliances. That is not the responsibility of police.:lol:
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby gila-river » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:48 pm

Redbeard wrote:
gila-river wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
gila-river wrote:I lived in Cuyama just outside Bakersfield for a year setting up a new farm. I went into Bakersfield for shotgun shells and .17 ammo. The place had good prices and I expressed interest in getting residency and maybe buying a new gun while I was over there. The old guy behind the counter asked where I was from and I told him AZ. He was almost irritated with me when I told him that. He said I'd be a damned fool and to keep my AZ license and just go home to buy firearms related stuff.
loved that cuyama valley. Hunted a lotta quail in there


It was a really cool place and I met some great people out there. I might have stayed permanently if I wanted to live in CA. Do you remember a big horse racing track and training facility on the south side of the 166 a couple miles east of the buckhorn?
i remember it well

We bought that property and farm it now. I lived in that round house up there while we set up infrastructure. Really cool peice of property
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby aunt betty » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:53 pm

vincentpa wrote:I know a guy who bought one of their 80% lowers. He tells me the EP guys are great guys, super nice and helpful. He milled one of the 80 lowers out and upon assembling the bolt catch, the plunger and spring got stuck because the hole was out of spec. They sent him a new lower free of charge. They did it without blinking.

He spoke to them a few minutes ago. They said not to worry. They stated everything was legal. He assured my friend that the ATF would (not) be kicking his door down. He also said, if it made him feel better, he could destroy it. My friend gave his complete support to the guys at EP and said he'd be pulling for them. The EP guys told my friend to watch the FB page for communication. They will let everyone know the situation from there.

I heard on the news clip that the ATF and EP had a court date on 3/20. Keep and eye out.

FIFY
Pretty sure you meant to put the (not) where I did.
Right?
I've heard that it's incredibly stupid to fuck around with a crazy man's head.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Redbeard » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:54 pm

gila-river wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
gila-river wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
gila-river wrote:I lived in Cuyama just outside Bakersfield for a year setting up a new farm. I went into Bakersfield for shotgun shells and .17 ammo. The place had good prices and I expressed interest in getting residency and maybe buying a new gun while I was over there. The old guy behind the counter asked where I was from and I told him AZ. He was almost irritated with me when I told him that. He said I'd be a damned fool and to keep my AZ license and just go home to buy firearms related stuff.
loved that cuyama valley. Hunted a lotta quail in there


It was a really cool place and I met some great people out there. I might have stayed permanently if I wanted to live in CA. Do you remember a big horse racing track and training facility on the south side of the 166 a couple miles east of the buckhorn?
i remember it well

We bought that property and farm it now. I lived in that round house up there while we set up infrastructure. Really cool peice of property
sweet. Yea it looked nice. So no more horse training there huh
gila-river wrote:Great, now the cops want to install dishwashers to. Just do your job Red and stop encroaching on our rights to replace appliances. That is not the responsibility of police.:lol:
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby gila-river » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:07 pm

No. Last I heard it had been vacant for 6 years before we picked it up
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby vincentpa » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:11 pm

aunt betty wrote:
vincentpa wrote:I know a guy who bought one of their 80% lowers. He tells me the EP guys are great guys, super nice and helpful. He milled one of the 80 lowers out and upon assembling the bolt catch, the plunger and spring got stuck because the hole was out of spec. They sent him a new lower free of charge. They did it without blinking.

He spoke to them a few minutes ago. They said not to worry. They stated everything was legal. He assured my friend that the ATF would (not) be kicking his door down. He also said, if it made him feel better, he could destroy it. My friend gave his complete support to the guys at EP and said he'd be pulling for them. The EP guys told my friend to watch the FB page for communication. They will let everyone know the situation from there.

I heard on the news clip that the ATF and EP had a court date on 3/20. Keep and eye out.

FIFY
Pretty sure you meant to put the (not) where I did.
Right?



Right. He said NOT to worry. Thanks Betty.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby Redbeard » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:12 pm

gila-river wrote:No. Last I heard it had been vacant for 6 years before we picked it up
ok. I moved from Bakersfield 7 years ago
gila-river wrote:Great, now the cops want to install dishwashers to. Just do your job Red and stop encroaching on our rights to replace appliances. That is not the responsibility of police.:lol:
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby assateague » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:15 pm

vincentpa wrote:I know a guy who bought one of their 80% lowers. He tells me the EP guys are great guys, super nice and helpful. He milled one of the 80 lowers out and upon assembling the bolt catch, the plunger and spring got stuck because the hole was out of spec. They sent him a new lower free of charge. They did it without blinking.

He spoke to them a few minutes ago. They said not to worry. They stated everything was legal. He assured my friend that the ATF would be kicking his door down. He also said, if it made him feel better, he could destroy it. My friend gave his complete support to the guys at EP and said he'd be pulling for them. The EP guys told my friend to watch the FB page for communication. They will let everyone know the situation from there.

I heard on the news clip that the ATF and EP had a court date on 3/20. Keep and eye out.


And the info on the Ares website is even worse, regarding the ATF. They're really nothing more than a bunch of thugs. Ares was a reseller for the EP lowers, and the ATF told them "if you give us your customer list, we won't raid you" The owner strung them along long enough to get a temporary restraining order against the ATF.

Here's what they say the issue is. (yes, this is dumb)

-ATF says that the lowers are completed, and then backfilled. Which means that, at some point before filling, the 80% lower was about a 95% lower.

-But that's not how it works. The lower is poured around the filler material.

-ATF knew that this is how it's done, because they approved the process, back in 2012. They even specify what constitutes a complete lower, and NONE of the things are complete on the 80%

So once again, despite the fact that they KNOW they have nothing, the feds are trying to bully people into doing what they want. So fucking sick of shit like that.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby aunt betty » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:30 pm

I recall talking with older men when I was RMFC's age. I was paranoid then about "gubment" taking our guns.
They laughed and laughed and said "it'll never happen because this is "merica".

Well, its beginning to happen. Seems like it.
I've heard that it's incredibly stupid to fuck around with a crazy man's head.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby The Duck Hammer » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:24 pm

From Ares Armor's facebook page. Made me laugh.
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Re: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Postby 3legged_lab » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:56 pm

They should probably wait til things settle a little before they rattle cages. Lol
Bootlipkiller wrote: all the mallards I killed today had boners do to my epic calling.
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