IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

[assateague]

Once again- even if they deem the hunk of plastic a "firearm", it is NOT an illegal firearm. There is nothing illegal about an AR. If it is deemed a firearm, they may have SOLD them illegally, but it is NOT an illegal firearm. It's a transactional thing on the part of the seller, not the buyer. The ATF "wanting something back" which is perfectly legal to have is BS.

That's a pretty damn big distinction.

[vincentpa]

Once again- even if they deem the hunk of plastic a "firearm", it is NOT an illegal firearm. There is nothing illegal about an AR. If it is deemed a firearm, they may have SOLD them illegally, but it is NOT an illegal firearm. It's a transactional thing on the part of the seller, not the buyer. The ATF "wanting something back" which is perfectly legal to have is BS.

That's a pretty damn big distinction.

I got you.

[assateague]

Although I'll be the first to admit that things such as law and logic don't matter a whit when dealing with a govt that makes shit up as they go.

[aunt betty]

Although I'll be the first to admit that things such as law and logic don't matter a whit when dealing with a govt that makes shit up as they go.

Yup. If ATF is "fucking up" you'd have to be fucking crazy to think it's just that one agency.
They all get their checks from the same place. They serve the same master.

Monsanto bought the supreme court. FEMA is "perfect" and Congress needs a laxative so it can pass more shitty laws.
The FBI, and CIA are good though. lol

[vincentpa]

Although I'll be the first to admit that things such as law and logic don't matter a whit when dealing with a govt that makes shit up as they go.

That's what I'm saying. That's why I immediately talked to a lawyer. I don't know how the transaction makes the firearm as it is considered by law. What I do know is that intent plays a big part under law. We as buyers that thought the sale was legal because of the statements and actions of the seller have a strong position.

[3legged_lab]

That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

Care to explain how?

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

First of all, how do they know you have said firearm? If you didn't have to do a background check, how should they know who ended up with them?

Secondly , all you bought was a piece of plastic. That's like the ATF coming and asking for all of my decoys, because they have now determined them to be firearms and I am in trouble for having sold them.

Even if they do find out who bought them, and they do determine that they are indeed firearms, there is nothing federally that prevents you from privately selling a firearm to anyone you so please.

So I ask again, how is that a bad response?

Heres how I understand it a bad idea, I may be right or wrong -

It is legal to manufacture a firearm for your own personal use. It is recommended to serialize it in the event it is lost or stolen - but NOT required. It is not legal to sell that firearm unless paperwork is filed and the gun is serialized.


Did I cover it all correctly Jim?

[assateague]

Yes.

[vincentpa]

However, you may be in possession of a firearm that was sold illegally, which makes that firearm illegal. If you sold a firearm that was sold illegally, you may be in trouble. I'm sure there are convoluted laws and reasoning that would screw you over.

[sws002]

[quote="sws002"]
That's unfortunate that everyone who bought one subsequently sold it...

I believe that may be very poor advice. It may invite trouble where there really is none.

Care to explain how?

If the ATF comes looking for a firearm they have deemed to be illegal and you are not in possession of it or have sold it, you could be in hot water.

First of all, how do they know you have said firearm? If you didn't have to do a background check, how should they know who ended up with them?

Secondly , all you bought was a piece of plastic. That's like the ATF coming and asking for all of my decoys, because they have now determined them to be firearms and I am in trouble for having sold them.

Even if they do find out who bought them, and they do determine that they are indeed firearms, there is nothing federally that prevents you from privately selling a firearm to anyone you so please.

So I ask again, how is that a bad response?

Heres how I understand it a bad idea, I may be right or wrong -

It is legal to manufacture a firearm for your own personal use. It is recommended to serialize it in the event it is lost or stolen - but NOT required. It is not legal to sell that firearm unless paperwork is filed and the gun is serialized.


Did I cover it all correctly Jim?[/quote]

You did. But the key word here is "firearm". The ATF has already made a ruling on this matter. You don't think they just pencil-whipped someone being able to sell 80% lowers do you? I'd be willing to bet there was a lot of research and debate that happened before this was even considered to be legal. What changed?

[3legged_lab]

Thats easy - they changed their minds. Just like when the kid who owns the basketball is losing the game, he gets mad and changes the rules of the game.

[aunt betty]

However, you may be in possession of a firearm that was sold illegally, which makes that firearm illegal. If you sold a firearm that was sold illegally, you may be in trouble. I'm sure there are convoluted laws and reasoning that would screw you over.

Legal schmegal...
If the gubment can just change the way a law reads (in their minds) or enforce the law wrong and put you through criminal justice system HELL then what's the fucking point of even trying to be law-abiding and true?

[sws002]

However, you may be in possession of a firearm that was sold illegally, which makes that firearm illegal. If you sold a firearm that was sold illegally, you may be in trouble. I'm sure there are convoluted laws and reasoning that would screw you over.

Legal schmegal...
If the gubment can just change the way a law reads (in their minds) or enforce the law wrong and put you through criminal justice system HELL then what's the fucking point of even trying to be law-abiding and true?

Fuck I hate agreeing with Betty. But this. The time is getting close...

[aunt betty]

However, you may be in possession of a firearm that was sold illegally, which makes that firearm illegal. If you sold a firearm that was sold illegally, you may be in trouble. I'm sure there are convoluted laws and reasoning that would screw you over.

Legal schmegal...
If the gubment can just change the way a law reads (in their minds) or enforce the law wrong and put you through criminal justice system HELL then what's the fucking point of even trying to be law-abiding and true?

Fuck I hate agreeing with Betty. But this. The time is getting close...

I have moments of brilliance surrounded by hours of freaking nutty. Of course it's a matter of perspective.

[vincentpa]

However, you may be in possession of a firearm that was sold illegally, which makes that firearm illegal. If you sold a firearm that was sold illegally, you may be in trouble. I'm sure there are convoluted laws and reasoning that would screw you over.

Legal schmegal...
If the gubment can just change the way a law reads (in their minds) or enforce the law wrong and put you through criminal justice system HELL then what's the fucking point of even trying to be law-abiding and true?

Fuck I hate agreeing with Betty. But this. The time is getting close...

I have moments of brilliance surrounded by hours of freaking nutty. Of course it's a matter of perspective.

I like the nutty betty more!

[AKPirate]

However, you may be in possession of a firearm that was sold illegally, which makes that firearm illegal. If you sold a firearm that was sold illegally, you may be in trouble. I'm sure there are convoluted laws and reasoning that would screw you over.

Legal schmegal...
If the gubment can just change the way a law reads (in their minds) or enforce the law wrong and put you through criminal justice system HELL then what's the fucking point of even trying to be law-abiding and true?

Fuck I hate agreeing with Betty. But this. The time is getting close...

I have moments of brilliance surrounded by hours of freaking nutty. Of course it's a matter of perspective.

I like the nutty betty more!

Stop resisting

[vincentpa]

You did. But the key word here is "firearm". The ATF has already made a ruling on this matter. You don't think they just pencil-whipped someone being able to sell 80% lowers do you? I'd be willing to bet there was a lot of research and debate that happened before this was even considered to be legal. What changed?

We don't know if the ATF made a ruling. That's what's fishy about this all the way around. Maybe the ATF saw the final product and visited EP's manufacturing site like they claim. Maybe some ATF guy said that it looks good talking to them. Maybe EP took that as the ATF determination granting them permission to proceed. Maybe this verbal exchange between the ATF and EP is the reason the owner of EP isn't in jail right now. Maybe the ATF really was never done ruling on it. Maybe EP purposefully embellished the ATF approval. We don't know all of the facts right now. All I know is that EP had a statement on their website stating the ATF had seen their final product and visited their manufacturing site and gave them approval. They went on to many gun forums stating the same thing. After I heard they were raided, I visited EP's website. Their statement about ATF approval was not there any longer. That's what made me think they may have not been entirely truthful to their customers. However, the statements they made on the gun forums were.

I think the "illegal" here will be from EP selling a firearm illegally, which probably makes a legal firearm illegal. The buyer was unaware or even duped. Now the buyer is in possession of a firearm sold illegally unbeknownst to him. The buyer has to give it up.

[vincentpa]

Maybe it's similar to a person buying something from someone in good faith that turns out to be stolen. If the buyer of the stolen property couldn't know or reasonably know the item was stolen, there is no crime. He just has to give it back with recourse against the thief for the buyer's loss.

There may be recourse against EP for the lower for any of their customers when this is all said and done.

[aunt betty]

Maybe it's similar to a person buying something from someone in good faith that turns out to be stolen. If the buyer of the stolen property couldn't know or reasonably know the item was stolen, there is no crime. He just has to give it back with recourse against the thief for the buyer's loss.

There may be recourse against EP for the lower for any of their customers when this is all said and done.

When it comes to guns...our government is running as if it were run by an irrational emotional female.
Think Mrs. Obama is telling Barrack what to do? There is a VERY good chance of that. I've known a few black couples and generally the guy is puss-whipped BIG TIME and thinks he's a "playa" when the Mrs. ain't around.


I think what I just did there is called "playing the race card". BOOM!

Do you think it's a coincidence that BO sent his wife and kids to China during the basketball tourney? He's up in the oval office with his "crew" smoking fatties, cigarettes, and drinking beer. Betcha betcha.

[3legged_lab]

Maybe it's similar to a person buying something from someone in good faith that turns out to be stolen. If the buyer of the stolen property couldn't know or reasonably know the item was stolen, there is no crime. He just has to give it back with recourse against the thief for the buyer's loss.

There may be recourse against EP for the lower for any of their customers when this is all said and done.

I like the way you think Vinny, I hope it doesn't come to that though.

[vincentpa]

Ok fellas. I just got off the phone with one of the local ATF guys. I was impressed. He seems to be a really good guy. Real down to earth guy. He's into reloading and shooting himself. He told me no worries. He didn't have all the particulars. He's going to call me back later after he calls their local office. He said most likely the manufacturer either didn't get final permission or changed the procedure since approval. He said nobody that bought it would be in any kind of trouble. If and when an ATF comes to claim the lower, you would be permitted to remove any parts you put into it. You would also have recourse against the company.

[assateague]

The ATF showing up at my house sounds like the start of a very, very bad story. It would be greatly appreciated if they would give me at least an hour's notice, to save everyone a great deal of aggravation. Especially since I've got all three of their initials covered.

[The Duck Hammer]

The ATF showing up at my house sounds like the start of a very, very bad story. It would be greatly appreciated if they would give me at least an hour's notice, to save everyone a great deal of aggravation. Especially since I've got all three of their initials covered.

Better just go ahead and mail that bitch in so they don't have to come out.

[assateague]

If it ever would come to that, the FedEx treatment would be preferable. I don't want those fuckers anywhere near this place.

[vincentpa]

The ATF showing up at my house sounds like the start of a very, very bad story. It would be greatly appreciated if they would give me at least an hour's notice, to save everyone a great deal of aggravation. Especially since I've got all three of their initials covered.

He's going to get back to me with all the particulars when he can. He said that anyone should give their local office a call if they're concerned. If they're anything like this guy, you might actually like him.

[assateague]

Nope. I'm not inviting the vampire into my house.

[vincentpa]

Nope. I'm not inviting the vampire into my house.

You wouldn't have to invite him into your house. You could meet him somewhere. I sure wouldn't trust the mail. I'd want to make sure he got it AND he gave me a signed receipt.

[assateague]

Fuck it- FedEx has delivery confirmation, too, and it's a lot harder to slap handcuffs on somebody from 93 miles away.

[vincentpa]

Fuck it- FedEx has delivery confirmation, too, and it's a lot harder to slap handcuffs on somebody from 93 miles away.

LOL! I'd ask before you did that. Buying and possessing the firearm may not be illegal but sending a firearm to a federal building might!

[assateague]

Oh, it most assuredly won't be a firearm anymore if they require it to be sent in the mail.

[sws002]

The ATF showing up at my house sounds like the start of a very, very bad story. It would be greatly appreciated if they would give me at least an hour's notice, to save everyone a great deal of aggravation. Especially since I've got all three of their initials covered.

How about the 4th? That's the most fun of all of them!